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Debian May Need To Re-Evaluate Its Interest In "Init System Diversity"

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  • #81
    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    They also usually like systemd very much.

    You know, the ability to actually write configuration and not fucking code to manage services is so amazing.
    Nice try at a straw man, but you're talking about features and I've been very clear that my complaints, like most who voice concerns over SystemD, are about the way it's been implemented and the project managed.

    What you tried there is like trying to counter complaints about a restaurant where the whole place, kitchen included, is absolutely filthy and the staff is incredibly rude by pointing out that they've got some popular items on the menu.
    "Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."

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    • #82
      Originally posted by Delgarde View Post

      I know they tried... I don't know how successfully. It's long been a problem for the BSDs that while they're willing to do this kind of work — providing native implementations of APIs initially developed on Linux — they've always struggled to deliver on manpower.

      It's been that way since the early days of Gnome, KDE, etc... as soon as they started trying to offer better hardware integration for users, it tied them more to a specific OS. And even though everyone wanted to do abstraction layers to preserve cross-OS compatibility, the problem kept coming down to this — all the work was being done by the much larger number of Linux developers, and BSD just didn't have the people to make things work for them.
      I must imagine that having a well-defined API to implement would be a lot simpler than having to patch - and manage the patches for - all the upstream projects, in order to replace all their system-facing code.
      With well-defined API endpoints in place, BSD wouldn't have to try and emulate Linux layouts or commands in order to fool the DE to think things are being done correctly, they'd just have to implement the APIs in a BSD-sane way while maybe massaging their return values to map to what the API spec defines that they should be.

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      • #83
        Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
        Nice try at a straw man, but you're talking about features and I've been very clear that my complaints, like most who voice concerns over SystemD, are about the way it's been implemented and the project managed.
        It's not a straw man. I just pointed out that most sysadmins don't care about how many people Pottering *allegedly* killed in dark alleys on a full moon.

        The software provided works better than its predecessor, therefore they are happy about it.

        What you tried there is like trying to counter complaints about a restaurant where the whole place, kitchen included, is absolutely filthy and the staff is incredibly rude by pointing out that they've got some popular items on the menu.
        No what I've tried is to say that what they do works better than the predecessor, and that's the only thing that matters for actual users of the software.

        I'll also weight in with my own experience on systemd issue tracker and I'll tell you that I'm not seeing anything strange. We actually get quick answers (for opensource project standards) and direct intervention of project leaders and lead developers.

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        • #84
          Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
          It's not a straw man. I just pointed out that most sysadmins don't care about how many people Pottering *allegedly* killed in dark alleys on a full moon.
          You do realize that rather than countering arguments you're just deflecting them? It's a bit like claiming that you don't care if there's a rat infestation in the kitchen because you haven't gotten food poisoning yet or that you don't care if the staff is crazy because you haven't been stabbed yet.

          Seriously thou, the shambolic nature of development and the communication issues are so well documented a few anecdotal accounts here and there aren't really worth the 1s and 0s they're written in. The fact that you also try to use anecdotes as a substitute for a real counter-argument kinda goes to show that you don't have one.

          I'm not going to stop you from eating at a particular restaurant, but if I know there's a rat infestation in the kitchen and the staff is rude I will point this out and you claiming that you haven't gotten food poisoning or been stabbed, at least yet, isn't going to convince me the rat infestation and stab-happy staff isn't something to be concerned over.
          "Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."

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          • #85
            Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
            You do realize that rather than countering arguments you're just deflecting them?
            I'm not countering arguments. I'm politely reminding that none cares outside of some vocal minority, for better or worse.

            It's a bit like claiming that you don't care if there's a rat infestation in the kitchen because you haven't gotten food poisoning yet or that you don't care if the staff is crazy because you haven't been stabbed yet.
            That's what people do. FYI: are you aware that A LOT of places working with food (especially in industrial environments) have debatable hygiene and would close instantly if someone just so happened to send an inspection their way? Because it do.

            Seriously thou, the shambolic nature of development and the communication issues are so well documented
            Not seeing this documentation posted here.

            All times I've seen "proof" of bad communication I usually agreed with systemd devs, even when they did the unthinkable, and blamed the downstream applications or distro for doing wrong things they shouldn't do.

            I'm not going to stop you from eating at a particular restaurant, but if I know there's a rat infestation in the kitchen and the staff is rude I will point this out and you claiming that you haven't gotten food poisoning or been stabbed, at least yet, isn't going to convince me the rat infestation and stab-happy staff isn't something to be concerned over.
            I don't give a shit about your own beliefs. My direct experience counters them on almost every point.
            Last edited by starshipeleven; 09-19-2019, 12:18 PM.

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            • #86
              Originally posted by danmcgrew
              Still a room-temperature-IQ, mouth-breathing shithead, I see, who can not contribute anything meaningful to a conversation.
              Says the guy whose only contribution is Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V. Yes I remember you quote-lover from Raspberry threads. You haven't changed.

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              • #87
                aaand blocked post for danmcgrew above

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                • #88
                  Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                  I'm not countering arguments. I'm politely reminding that none cares outside of some vocal minority, for better or worse.
                  If you and others don't care, then why do you even respond? You think you're going to convince anyone with this? Because even taking everything you're saying at face value you're only wasting your own time.

                  Not seeing this documentation posted here.
                  So now we're pulling the appeal to ignorance card? Then again this kind "If it's not clearly visible to me, then it's not a problem" attitude it probably to be expected from someone who openly admits they don't care if they eat food with rat droppings in it if they don't get food poisoning from it.

                  I don't give a shit about your own beliefs. My direct experience counters them on almost every point.
                  As I said, anecdotal evidence is still anecdotal evidence. The fact that you keep insisting that you don't care what anyone with concerns about the way the SystemD project is run and how it's been implemented is also kind hilarious when you keep raving and ranting at everyone who dares raise any concerns or say they're concerned.
                  "Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."

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                  • #89
                    Given that the major distributions are coalescing around systemd, it'll be interesting to see how they do going forward. My take is that a distribution is a system comprised of many parts, arguably the most important of which is the set of maintainers (paid or otherwise) who -- for the most part -- are basically people who agree with the distribution's goals to the point where they are willing to spend their time scratching their own (and sometimes other people's) itch to the benefit of everyone.

                    Economic motives aside, as long as a distribution makes its maintainers happy, it'll survive -- the users who don't actively contribute are essentially nice-to-haves in that frame of observation.

                    But once upstreams start assuming that their products targeted at Linux (be they services, applications or even desktop environments) have systemd functionality, the cat's arguably out of the bag. Why should maintainers (upstream or from systemd distributions) care about non-systemd use-cases if the majority of major distributions (and thus users) won't ever actually *use* the product on a non-systemd system?

                    There's a network effect at play here and the people who insist on having a non-systemd alternative (for whatever reason) are going to be left holding the short end of the stick for reasons of practicality and economics. And the rest of us get to listen to them complain loudly and persistently about a change they didn't initiate.

                    If UNIX has now become GNU/Linux plus some rounding errors, I think it's fair to say that Linux is showing signs of becoming GNU/Linux/systemd plus some rounding errors.

                    If a certain subset of people don't like that, they are free to attempt to build a better implementation of systemd and its API, aren't they? Isn't that what happened with e.g. elogind? At this point, it seems that the only compelling alternative to systemd is a product that not only re-implements systemd's functionality and API, but does it *better* ?
                    Last edited by ermo; 09-19-2019, 01:05 PM.

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                    • #90
                      Originally posted by cf100clunk View Post
                      The answer to all this Debian init system conflict has been in plain sight for quite awhile: Devuan! https://devuan.org
                      If Debian without systemd is desired, use the equivalent Devuan version and be glad you did. Simple.
                      I used Devuan for my last LFS build and it worked really well. I could be happy using it as my main system if it came down to it.

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