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Debian May Need To Re-Evaluate Its Interest In "Init System Diversity"

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  • #41
    Originally posted by Templar82 View Post

    I will use BSD before I use systemd
    I already did do that 6 years ago.. I love it. It works better.

    And to those that claim FreeBSD will eventually implement their own version of systemd. (Benno Rice) You need to understand that BSD does not have the same mindset as Linux. (RedHat/IBM's mindset really as Linux is just a kernel and that is what they care about.)

    BSD cares a lot more about the Unix philosophy because.. well.. it's Unix. If FreeBSD did get a new Init system, that is all it would be. Also.. OpenRC a strong competitor to systemd already runs and is used on FreeBSD in TrueOS and FreeNAS so it seems logical that if they move to a new init, it will be OpenRC and not like systemd.

    Use BSD, it's basically Linux that is easier to customize and has a lot of cool features Linux does not.


    • #42
      Originally posted by spstarr View Post
      ... We know Fedora/RHEL was forced to use systemd given the alignment of Red Hat knowing about systemd and its goals.
      Honestly, you don't know about Fedora nor Red Hat Enterprise. Fedora needed a better system management because Upstart couldn't fill the needs thanks to the CLA imposed by Canonical (which was the reason systemd was born) and sysinit was completely a roadblock.
      Systemd developers despite obstacle and opposition within Red Hat development (the team is very diversified as some of employees have Debian, Ubuntu and Arch backgrounds) had to convince the very conservative Red Hat department the new system manangement at the time was a better solution.


      • #43
        Originally posted by uxmkt View Post
        You... do recognize you have come to Phoronix, right?
        Shining place of shining Linux news for almighty people going straight to comments without reading the article.


        • #44
          Originally posted by andyprough View Post

          If you want to use a Debian-based system with no systemd and with alsa instead of pulseaudio, I would recommend antiX. Only difference is in order to start Firefox with sound you need to invoke it with the apulse cli utility: $ apulse firefox

          Firefox ESR works with alsa without having to use apulse, as does Waterfox. Alternatively, you can do what I do and compile firefox with alsa support.
          Pulse doesn't replace ALSA, in-fact it uses it as a backend.

          Pulseaudio does actually exist for a reason. I personally would avoid any desktop distro that doesn't ship with it without an alternative (and as said, ALSA isn't an alternative).


          • #45
            I really don't get all of the hate for systemd, it's pretty awesome.


            • #46
              Originally posted by Britoid View Post

              Pulse doesn't replace ALSA, in-fact it uses it as a backend.

              Pulseaudio does actually exist for a reason. I personally would avoid any desktop distro that doesn't ship with it without an alternative (and as said, ALSA isn't an alternative).
              True, the ability to have multiple applications play audio streams simultaneously, the ability to easily move streams to different devices is awesome! I could do that in 2009, on KDE 4 with a simple GUI, almost 9 years before Windows finally introduced equivalent capabilities.


              • #47
                Seems like the functionally monolithic internal mess of constantly changing APIs is doing exactly what you'd expect to projects that try to pull in some parts of SystemD while re-implementing others in a less backwards way. The fact that the morons behind it are awful at communication obviously doesn't help.

                I'm probably going to get the usual response to this of feigned indignation and strawmanning where people try to pretend that I'm arguing against the very existence of the project when my gripe is with the shambolic nature in which it has been implemented and is being maintained. It's creator is after all kind of famous for taking good ideas from MacOS (CoreAudio and InitD) and then completely bungling the execution of them.
                Last edited by L_A_G; 19 September 2019, 07:12 AM.
                "Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."


                • #48
                  Originally posted by cb88 View Post

                  Unfortunately the problem is... systemd has a goal of making itself a hard dependency all over the place to drive out alternatives through brute force. Same as pulseaudio... it's super annoying to setup a non pulseaudio desktop for no valid reason. However puseaudio worms it's way into software and then later native audio support is dropped for example with Firefox.

                  If systemd was a launchd alike... hey that'd be great and we could use that but it isn't it's a monster be all and end all project that nobody should want.
                  You right..
                  The project started almost as a way to do some vendor-lock-in which in free software, its shame..
                  If they agreed a public API to init systems, we wouldn't be here discussing it..

                  Debian should be the first to defend its name,
                  And to have a software chosen as default, it should ask for some standardisation, and no vendor-lock-in, which a public API would provide to all..


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by sandy8925 View Post
                    I really don't get all of the hate for systemd, it's pretty awesome.
                    If you don't understand, its because you are not deep into this subjects, and the impact all of this represents, to people working with it, from top to bottom..
                    Also, its not hate( since hate is something that we should avoid in life, more even when we are in a open source community, which means diversity.. ), the problem is that systemd, kills that diversity.. yeah..

                    The lack of standardisation, also doesn't help..
                    Each time you create a subsystem, a standard should be approved, this are good practices in opensource..

                    Debian should ask for it ,
                    In the past it holded a status of independence and diversity..


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Qaridarium
                      I vote for SystemD only Debian. we really should not fragment the linux eco system we should unite instead.

                      and negative people say that linux has so many distros that "unite" is not possible but in fact

                      if redhat and ubuntu and debian is SystemD only then it is like 99% of the market share.

                      no one cares what 1% of the freak people do in the moment they watch porn and code....
                      No reason to say systemd only. Just say it is not required to provide init.d scripts. Leave maintaining the alternatives to those that care and don't bother anyone else.

                      Of course the results will be mostly the same 😉

                      As long as they keep traditional logfiles around at least, because I have still not warmed up to journalctl.
                      Last edited by carewolf; 19 September 2019, 08:01 AM.