Originally posted by birdie
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How Google's Android Maintains A Stable Linux Kernel ABI
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birdie i have to agree with you. i have a nvidia gpu and i know the problem of drivers not working with newer kernel. and of course opensource fanatics will tell that nvidia its at fault for not helping with opensource driver. its a must for drivers to be opensource otherwise we ran into problems with kernels. so kernel is not at fault here. just the driver
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Originally posted by DanL View PostThey intend to write their own kernel? Where did you see that? They modify the upstream Linux kernel. That is not the same thing as writing a new one. It's not even close. I'm sorry if that runs counter to your "Linux sucks" narrative.
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tg--
What good is it to have stable ABIs just to allow derived code to live outside of the project, just to allow external - possibly license-infringing - code to influence the kernel itself, by forcing it to maintain code that wouldn't otherwise be maintained?
Do you honestly think that the kernel devs would have tweaked the GPL_EXPORTS if it weren't for ZoL? A stable API would have had what's supposed to be used by what set in stone years ago with revisions to the API set to go into effect with new LTS kernels. Like, 4.14 would have introduced something new or changed something old and all the kernels from there to the very last 4.18 release would be expected to respect that without a single tweak until 4.19.
If a stable API was actually the case, the ZoL people would have known what is good to use, what is safe, what is set in stone, what will be removed soon, etc. Extend that to an entire OS and Google making Fuchsia makes a lot of sense. A stable API would also mean that the kernel devs can say "if you don't hook into our kernel using these methods then you're in violation" whereas the current method is a cat and mouse free-for-all that ZoL and Nvidia users know all too well.
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Originally posted by birdie View PostWhich kinda invalidates the claim that Linux is the most popular kernel in the world 'cause Google doesn't use the mainline kernel. They have a very special fork with tons of patches which they maintain on their own. That also explains why they're busy developing Zircon - they want their own fast and efficient kernel which features stable ABIs/APIs out of the box, unlike the Linux kernel where stable APIs are nonsense.
I'd venture to say that kernel developers' position in this regard is nonsense but ardent open source fanboys will find the most bizarre arguments to defend this point of view even though many are using ZFS and other out-of-kernel modules whose developers consonantly struggle to maintain compatibility.
Basically all distributions ship their own Linux forks, in all cases with their own patchset that's not in mainline.
Even completely community based distros maintain their own kernel patchsets, like Debian and even Gentoo (where you build your own kernel) - so it shouldn't come as a surprise that the largest, and most divergent, Linux distribution (Android) uses its own patchset.
Since the Linux development model is to have thousands of forks, I fail to see the issue.
It is also perfectly valid to use your own fork, since Linux isn't "one thing". Linus Torvald's fork is by no means the only way to use Linux. There even is another fork that's far more widely used than Linus' version and generally considered "mainline", which is GregKH's "stable"-series, and also a number of LTS-series by various other developers.
Of course it is also valid to make the argument, that stable internal APIs/ABIs are nonsense.
Linux' model is to pull all code into a single place, which makes sense for a project that's GPL licensed and demands derived code to be made available under the same terms anyway.
What good is it to have stable ABIs just to allow derived code to live outside of the project, just to allow external - possibly license-infringing - code to influence the kernel itself, by forcing it to maintain code that wouldn't otherwise be maintained?
Having no stable APIs isn't just because they don't want them, it's to actively push people to honor the license and upstream code.
Of course it is a very different situation for Windows' and iOS' kernel, which are closed source software. Third party projects actually HAVE to use a different license and can't possibly be upstreamed (with small exceptions in the FreeBSD portion of iOS' drivers). That development model also demands stable ABIs since a much larger portion of external code is used.
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Originally posted by birdie View PostA major software developer which has struggled with the Linux kernel so much, they intend to write their own and I'm writing crap?
Hundreds of Phoronix users mourn each time ZFS, NVIDIA and other out-of-kernel modules break when Linux developers start hiding kernel calls behind GPL, or remove or change them drastically and I'm writing crap?
God, I thought rabid open source fans will start pouring tons of shat right after my comment but it just happened so fast it took me by surprise, lol.
I will now gladly leave this thread
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Originally posted by birdie View PostI'd venture to say that kernel developers' position in this regard is nonsense but ardent open source fanboys will find the most bizarre arguments to defend this point of view even though many are using ZFS and other out-of-kernel modules whose developers consonantly struggle to maintain compatibility.
Originally posted by birdieGod, I thought rabid open source fans will start pouring tons of shat right after my comment but it just happened so fast it took me by surprise, lol. I will now gladly leave this thread 'cause it's already been hijacked by bigotry and absence of any rationale.
Looks like another one for the global killfile soon. I really wish blocklists were working; your spewage is the perfect place for it.
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A major software developer which has struggled with the Linux kernel so much, they intend to write their own and I'm writing crap? Hundreds of Phoronix users mourn each time ZFS, NVIDIA and other out-of-kernel modules break when Linux developers start hiding kernel calls behind GPL, or remove or change them drastically and I'm writing crap? Linux desktop is nowhere to be seen and I'm writing crap? Native ports of AAA games basically don't exist and I'm writing crap? Looooool.
God, I thought rabid open source fans will start pouring tons of shat right after my comment but it just happened so fast it took me by surprise, lol. I will now gladly leave this thread 'cause it's already been hijacked by bigotry and absence of any rationale.
Now please discuss how Google are idiots and how they should force thousands of hardware vendors to open source their device drivers. As if Google doesn't already have enough sway. Oh, wait, those vendors depend their survival and profits on Google yet they refuse to open source their drivers. The world must be incompatible with open source ideals.
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Originally posted by birdie View PostWhich kinda invalidates the claim that Linux is the most popular kernel in the world 'cause Google doesn't use the mainline kernel.
I'd venture to say that kernel developers' position in this regard is nonsense but ardent open source fanboys will find the most bizarre arguments to defend this point of view
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