KDE Is Looking For Ideas On New Goals

[Kernelcoffee]

For me what I wish is not a review of functionalities or UI but a review of the UX or how things are presented to and used by the user.
Trying to get change the "when you let developers create UI"

For example, the way you add a printer of me is a good example of why a normal user (take your computer illiterate grand-mother for exemple), will get scared or fall on the ground spasming due to the trauma:
First you get a list of ALL the options available on how to MANUALLY add a printer and somewhere in the middle of that list you're going have a "discovered" printer is lost in the middle of the list.
Why is it that the only actual printer is not the first item of the list ? or even better how about having the "Manually Add a printer with a URI" not be displayed and be an option (something like "Add manually") you click on because the automated discovery didn't display what you wanted
Next screen is then going to have you chose the driver for the printer, same thing, you get a giant list of ALL the possible brand of printer available on the market, then be a list of ALL the printers for that brand regardless of the fact that you already have the printer's information since you selected it in the previous list.
You do have a "Recommended drivers" entry for the generic on but just like before it's in the list of all the other possible options

Take "Discover" the software center, in my opinion it's not usable unless you already know what you are looking for and even then I'm pretty most of use are just going to pop a terminal and use the packet manager directly. In the end it's a "list" of software but the way it's presented doesn't make you want to look around the way a "store" is making you do it. Also take a look at the installed list, it's giant mess of installed packages that mixes core feature like firewall, common apps like firefox and every else (font/plasmoid/...)
Also it's decorated from the menu plasmoid "software-update"

So If I had a wish for the next goal is to streamline the user experience - Wizard where you don't feel like you are doing your tax returns, UIs where multiple data-set are not segregated into their own model/view idiom but are mixed together to make the whole more unified, coherent and increase a standardized synergy between features.

It kind of turned into a rant but that's what kills me when you have good and powerful feature, the UI is shiny but the way it's put together is unusable.

[Jedinovice]

OK, long post - I do detail but worth it for the KDE dev team. Just joined to post this!

First of all I want to say "thank you" to the KDE dev team for excellent work on both Plsma and the apps. (I live and die by Kdenlive!.) It is the DE I longed for even in my Windows days. I will not compare with other DE's but for many of us who like the Windows 9x Menu system which worked - and Microsoft blew it and had to go back after Windows 8.x - KDE (Plasma) is the bright morning star. KDE is immediately understandable to new users and is helping me get Linux converts here... in Indonesia!

[Those who want KDE to be more like Gnome are rather missing the point. If people want the Gnome way then better they go with the real thing than KDE being an imitation.]

Also note that I am working with a local University running Windows XP on possible migration to Linux and I have shown the Neon and they have been blow away because KDE is familiar, simple to start with but powerful when needed. I am starting a trial on one machine for staff of one department to see how usable Linux is and KDE was the immediate 'Go to' more than any particular distro.

So a real, HUGE "Thank you" from me!!! I think KDE is generally wonderful!

However, just one small request but over something driving me mad and makes both Linux and KDE look bad to new users.

Although it's arguably a Gnome problem, could KDE include some setting for editing GTK fonts and screen colors? The facility for such no longer exists in GTK DE and nobody from the Gnome branch seems interested taking the view that defaults are defaults - no change allowed unless you are ready to go to the command line and/or start editing config files by hand. I do NOT use default screen colours or fonts and I try and save (further) eye strain by using black on grey rather than black on pure screaming white. Note that I am required by my work to use small form laptops, rather cheap and 'disposable' laptops (not Chromebooks) so I have to handle small, cheap displays along with a lot of users here in Indonesia who cannot afford developer level laptops. [Average monthly wage here is around $300 and lots of unemployment.]

In KDE Neon in particular, which I use a lot, the GTK app menu fonts sizes are always too small, highlighting is usually light grey on pale white and GTK apps become a pain to use. I even have occasions when I have white text on a white background and it cannot be changed! The Gnome tweak-tool itself does not handle fonts or colours and the old Gnome color tool only works with a few GTK 2 apps and not on GTK 3 apps at all. This all leads app display disarray and confusion with new users - yes, I am getting converts with the delight that is KDE - but there is confusion with different apps having different fonts and colours. Using the setting "Apply QT colours to GTK apps" does not work in 9 out of 10 cases. I know. I've tried it all.

I know it's only a matter of changing the .css files for the GTK themes but that's fiddly when editing manually. A GUI for a bit of text editing I would not have thought was too hard for a real developer, which I am not and I really have not got time. As it stands, nobody in any GTK based DE to date seems interested in making GTK app fonts and desktop colours controllable by the user and it makes apps very messy in a distro like Neon making KDE look bad when it's not KDE's fault but the Gnome team are clear that customisation is no longer seen as a feature of the DE save by editing text files directly.

So it's a big beg from me on a minor matter but would look good if KDE was the solution to a Gnome/GTK 'problem!'

And if the University goes with Linux KDE - very likely methinks - I'll get them to send you guys donations! [OK, I hate 'Discover' but I can see how it works on a smartphone and I rush and install Synaptic anyway so I won't rant on that!]

Thanks again - I love the KDE DE and the apps!

[duby229]

.......

Awesome bro, this is one of the most well thought out and considered posts I've read in a long time and I totally agree with you.You are 100% spot on, if KDE devs can solve the dilemma you describe here then that fixes the whole "GTK breaks themes constantly" problem. I don't know if that's something the KDE devs could actually do, but if they could, they would be my hero's.

[skeevy420]

Although it's arguably a Gnome problem, could KDE include some setting for editing GTK fonts and screen colors? The facility for such no longer exists in GTK DE and nobody from the Gnome branch seems interested taking the view that defaults are defaults - no change allowed unless you are ready to go to the command line and/or start editing config files by hand. I do NOT use default screen colours or fonts and I try and save (further) eye strain by using black on grey rather than black on pure screaming white. Note that I am required by my work to use small form laptops, rather cheap and 'disposable' laptops (not Chromebooks) so I have to handle small, cheap displays along with a lot of users here in Indonesia who cannot afford developer level laptops. [Average monthly wage here is around $300 and lots of unemployment.]

Here you go. I only have GIMP and Geeqie installed, but they take the themes set from here...and Wine programs when winecfg is set to use GTK3 themes (though dark themes sometimes have issues with Wine/Windows programs).



Worse comes to worse, the MATE or LXDesktop theme tools work for this task too. I used to have to use the LXDesktop tool (lxappearance-gtk3) with XFCE because it didn't always set all the GTK3 themes and mouse icons correctly during the GTK2 to 3 transition and I've used it with Plasma before too. Might have some luck with this, though I haven't used it in years.

Lol, just realized that I need to change my GTK theme settings to Oxygen to match the rest of my theme settings.

[Jedinovice]

Firstly, apologies if the quoting or formatting goes to pieces here. Phrononix is being very strangely on my browser (Slimjet) at this time and Print Preview is causing the browser to hang. Dunno why. So, since 'QUOTE' tends to go wrong due to, er, pilot error, I dropping back to the olde world of '>' to indicate quotes so I can get something readable. Can't find an edit feature in this forum either... Ouch!

>Here you go. I only have GIMP and Geeqie installed, but they take the themes set from here...and Wine programs when winecfg is set to use GTK3 themes (though dark themes sometimes have issues with Wine/Windows programs).



Yes.. except you cannot set the screen colours or font there. I swear. You can specify a theme, yes, I know, but you cannot tweak the theme to change the screen colours or fonts. You can ASSIGN a theme - sure. But you cannot edit the theme without going deep into manually editing .css files. Er, this counts double when you are trying to demo software such as GIMP on aging OHP a the local University where the 'green' output has busted and so everything is a shade of cyan.
I'm not saying GTK apps cannot be configured AT ALL. You can use Gnome-tweaks (though results seem very hit and miss and I am not sure it's being maintained properly and it does not work for GTK 2 apps where you need the older Gnome-tweak-tool which is also hit and miss...)
So I can set the KDE theme to Oxygen and GTK2 and 3 to Oxygen. But then I specify a bolded font for the menus in KDE and black on grey for the text windows and half my apps stay with tiny, non-bolded text for menus and black on screaming white or... as in the case of GIMP 2.10, white on black which, when I tried to apply QT colours to GTK apps lead to black on black in text windows! So now I cannot use QT colours on GTK apps. I swear, I've gone into this. My problem is not with setting themes for GTK apps, it's about setting font sizes, attributes and app colours.

The default font for GTK apps in Neon is too small even on minimal size/res screen displays. Kubuntu is is bit better but I know that Neon is not interested in non-QT apps and does not spent much time on configuring GTK apps. But however I look at it, I can't fix colour and font problems in GTK apps!
Honest!



>Worse comes to worse, the MATE or LXDesktop theme tools work for this task too. I used to have to use the LXDesktop tool (lxappearance-gtk3) with XFCE because it didn't always set all the GTK3 themes and mouse icons correctly during the GTK2 to 3 transition and I've used it with Plasma before too. Might have some luck with this, though I haven't used it in years.

Tried these. Don't work no more. Did they ever allow font and colour setting, BTW? I could not get them to run!
And, given we talking how to improve KDE Plasma here, rather than Gnome or Mate or LXDE, then I don't see why adding a extra button in 'GTK appearence' for, "tweak theme' which would allow for just picking fonts and colours. It's still a win for KDE and it also means KDE distros can match Plasma and GTK app defaults without hacking text files around or using a GTK tool. I know the coding solution is simple so it's a quick fix with quite a large return!

>Lol, just realized that I need to change my GTK theme settings to Oxygen to match the rest of my theme settings.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough, but watch what happens when you change your windows colour to light grey and set the menu font to 'Bold' in KDE. I dare say you do not but I do! And then it falls over! It's not that GTK apps cannot be tweaked - there is the Gnome-tweaks tool for that - but, in line with the Mac way, fonts and colours cannot be set by a GUI.

UNLESS... someone does know of a tool that works but I've been hunting online for such a tool for years and the answer returned has always been to date; "You need to edit the .css files and here is the guide to the fields for you to edit manually.."
I swear!

If LX-appearance has been updated mind - I grant I gave up looking for a solution about a year ago and I have just passed end of year exam season which has been hell on Earth so I haven't been doing techie stuff, then I will happily take a look! But, as you say; "If the worse comes to the worse.." well, the idea is to prevent the worse come to the worse and have a simple fix in Plasma itself. I know it's a simple code matter. "Load in fields from text - change via GUI, write new file. End."
So thanks for the heads up and if there are new renderings of tweak tools I will be checking them out.
But I still say having the tweaks in Plasma would be A Good Thing(TM.) Plasma is not Gnome and should not be working on the Gnome principle of "install another app to change something."

[And, as I say, with no preview working and edit facility here... I apologise for any formatting issues. And typos. Methinks I will have to switch to Chromium for this forum.

[Jedinovice]

[Hmm.. This forum seems to work in Chromium but not Slimjet. Note to self there. Now is there any 'edit' function?]

>Awesome bro, this is one of the most well thought out and considered posts I've read in a long time and I totally agree with you.You are 100% spot on, if KDE devs can solve the dilemma you describe here then that fixes the whole "GTK breaks themes constantly" problem. I don't know if that's something the KDE devs could actually do, but if they could, they would be my hero's.[/QUOTE]

Well I'm glad somebody appreciates me!

As it is I actually KNOW that solving the GTK colours and fonts is easily fixed. It is, after only, only a matter of adding a GUI to the process of editing text files. I know, I looked it up in my frustration. Indeed, KDE goes half way with allowing theme application to GTK 2 and 3 apps in 'System settings' already. But you cannot hone the fonts or change system/app colours. Gnome-tweaks has become the equivalent of KDE system settings but, in (now) typical Gnome style you have to install it yourself and... half the time the tweaks do not work and certainly not for GTK 2 apps AND... no colour or font settings.

So I know the solution is simple but I am not a programmer. Well, I did some BASIC, Pascal and Assembler back in the day but strictly amateur on Commodore 8 bitters! These days my 'amateur time' is spend splicing together anime music videos with Kdenlive! Well, a guys gotta have a hobby. Some men seek world domination. I'm lame and prefer watching anime.

Anyway...! *If* I were on the KDE dev team I would add an extra button in system settings 'GTK themes' under 'Application style' to fine tune the fonts and colours. Then, as you note, the GTK apps could be 'forced' to finally integrate with Plasma and, if I dare say, Plasma would have one more feature Gnome (and Gnome based UI's such as Cinnamon) does not; because, and I'm not knocking the Gnome way for those that appreciate it, Gnome users do not like configuration options via the GUI. It's not the Gnome way. I actually wish Gnome coders would add the option to Gnome tweaks but that just does not seem to be the Gnome way, just like Mac. When it comes to colours and fonts - "Stick with the defaults" is the approach, seemingly in line with the smartphone UI approach of Gnome in general. [I have students, mind, who now type all their essays, even down to their University thesis on smartphone. So the smartphone way is kinda popular even for content production, to be fair!]

The only fiddly bit is that changing the fonts and colours for GTK apps would be by theme only since everything is held ONLY in the associate them. Change theme and you change colour. KDE is a bit different in that respect. But still better than what we have now which is looking up fields online and editing the .css files manually and hoping you don't screw things up!


And, as I say, I live and die by Gwenview, Okular, K3B, Kdenlive and the like so real credit to the KDE team for quality work with powerful but highly usable apps. I turn heads here now in Indonesia.

Cheers Bro! And please excuse types and missing words. I'm a dreadful proof reader and I can't find any 'edit post' feature. I'm new here!!

[aht0]

I don't need to install Total Commander, Dolphin has everything I need, it's graphically good and integrates very well in Plasma. When I used Gnome, Nautilus was a bit limited for my needs.

Then WHY complain in the first place? And you got it in reverse. Krusader is Total Commander clone, not the opposite. I also doubt that Dolphin let's you add/write files into archive on-the-fly or connect you to ftp servers on dual-pane file manager. Not to mention doing batch renames, verifying file checksums, comparing files by content for differences, hex editing, split/combine files etc.. About integration, Krusader is QT5 application very much like Dolphin. Just think 'improved Midnight Commander using QT5'.

[Charlie68]

Then WHY complain in the first place? And you got it in reverse. Krusader is Total Commander clone, not the opposite. I also doubt that Dolphin let's you add/write files into archive on-the-fly or connect you to ftp servers on dual-pane file manager. Not to mention doing batch renames, verifying file checksums, comparing files by content for differences, hex editing, split/combine files etc.. About integration, Krusader is QT5 application very much like Dolphin. Just think 'improved Midnight Commander using QT5'.

Most likely in my previous messages I could not make myself understood (English is not my mother tongue), I didn't complain, I just said that the Nautilus file manager for me was too limited, while with Dolphin I find all that which I need. Furthermore I am always against using a file manager different from the default one, because the file manager is an integral part of the DE, so in my opinion it makes little sense to use a different one. It's just my opinion ...

[Jedinovice]

*Slaps head*

I knew I was missing something important!

KDE Dev guys – whom I honestly like so much because you saved me in terms of UI – please read the following. Long post but I go into important detail. I really do believe I have critical goals for you that will make a difference IN THE FIELD!! [Usual disclaimers about typos and my awful proof reading apply here, especially 3,000 words in Libreoffice and in a state of literal exhaustion from end of year exams. No, I mean clinical exhaustion here..]

Plllleeease read. I am trying to help and not give my pet peeve. This will span a few posts as I have a lot of say but it’s all trying to help and NOT a sent of peeves or complaints! I appreciate being asked and I am kicking myself for not mentioning this KEY suggestion in the first place!

I was thinking; “What is a proper goal for KDE?” I mean, yes, I have mentioned ‘fixing’ GTK app tweaking but that’s hardly a major goal. The question was: “What goals should KDE have?”

Goals implies something longer term, moving towards a strategy. I thought; “Well, it’s gotta be making KDE more popular in deployment.” I mean, KDE is very popular with users with KDE constantly ranked as the favoured UI by users – when given a choice! But with enterprise, OEMs and the really big distros it’s Gnome 3 all the way.

And then… I slapped myself and kicked myself at the same time and fell over as I remembered the A1 NUMBER 1 THING I would change in KDE to make it more popular… For years I have said; “The one thing I would implement in KDE if I were in charge is a LOCK DOWN mode.”

and then…

“I would include ‘How do I?’”

Read on….!

I am approaching this goal from the high level goal of:
MAKING KDE MORE POPULAR – ESPECIALLY IN ENTERPRISE AND WITH OEMS.

KDE Plasma has the incredible ability to change system settings which is thoroughly good thing and makes KDE no virtually unique among OS DE’s across the field who have all moved towards not letting anything be changed. But KDE gets a lot of flack for the power of it’s systems settings. Indeed, it is the most controversial element of KDE with non-KDE users all complaining that “it’s too complicated!” Which brings me to my first identifiable Goal suggestion:

LOCK DOWN SYSTEM CONFIGURATION SO NOTHING CAN BE CHANGED.

Stay with me here! Lemme explain. While having the ability to change system settings via GUI and not hacking text files around is very much a good thing and I love it – and I live and die by user defined shortcut keys which make my laptop useable in the taxi or train – generally speaking having users change system settings is a BAD THING.

1) Enterprise wants a UI locked down so users cannot change things.

Once users have access to anything in system settings at all they can end up creating a complete mess of a system. In a mass roll out of an OS the last thing Enterprise needs is users poking around with the OS/UI settings. Enterprise wants total system lock down for stability. That’s one of the reason Gnome 3 has become so popular with Enterprise. Bug business wants a UI to run apps -that’s it, the end. Even installing new applications is seen as dangerous. In business stability trumps configuration every time! And why KDE gets it in the neck.

2) ‘Average Joe,’ who is more comfortable using an smartphone than a laptop, likes defaults.

'Average Joe' users are scared of changing things and convinced they will ‘screw everything up.’ And they can do! Both enterprise and Average Joe like laptops to work like appliances. If they do want anything changed – say from single clicking to open files and folders to double clicking, they want their techie friend to do it for them. “Hand holding” I call it.

Between Enterprise and “Average Joe” you have 90% of users who want system settings locked away, never to be seen – and, thus, why KDE is so ‘controversial.’

Gnome’s approach to this lack of desire to change things is logical, in a way, especially given Gnome’s close relationship to Red Hat: Remove configuration.

It does not exist. Gone. Vanished. Because the less user config the less chance for a system screw up and less variables in a IT support call. In a way Gnome 3 is kinda all about pleasing the support staff and Enterprise.

“Just press the button that runs the app!” is want Enterprise wants.
Gnome provides that and if you want to change anything in Gnome it’s text file editing or installing Gnome-tweaks which Average Joe and Enterprise are NOT going to do! [Which makes Gnome also controversial but... much more popular than KDE in OEM Linux installs or Enterprise mass deployments.]

KDE goes in the opposite direction making KDE popular with users who are giving a choice but avoided by Enterprise and OEMS.

So, how to make KDE match the expectation of “NO changee!!!” - See next post for more.

[Jedinovice]

[Oh! 'Edit' has come back. Er, this is a series of posts and my first piece has to be moderated as I am a new poster. The rest has gone through. So... if this post seems to be missing an introduction - my first post has not been cleared yet!]

I propose is a new mode for KDE - “Lock down!” At the point of install – most certainly on OEM installs – there should a question like “Do you want Lock down Mode enabled?” Of course, there is an explanation as to what that means which would be:

Nobody can change ANY config setting.

NOTHING! Total lock down! Even installing new apps would not be allowed to change file associations. The system would be “As is” and nothing could be changed. No changing the application menu form, no moving the panel, nothing. Everything totally locked down moreso even than Gnome.

Suddenly Enterprise will sit up and take notice. As I have said I am engaged with a local University with a move over to Linux and, frankly, if I were in charge of IT support, I would switch on Lock down mode! With a mass deployment you do not want the UI changing AT ALL!
Of course, we do not want to go the Gnome way and dumb KDE down. If Kde does that everyeone will just rush to Gnome 3 anyway. “Once you imitate another system users will rush to the original” is the law. System settings in all it’s techie glory should remain so IT support can fix things quick at the GUI and not hacking text files around which is screaming for a typo and breaking the system. So lock down mode should be an option – and down to the distro as to which is the default. PCLinuxOS will likely have disabled by default while NetRunner likely enabled.

It can then be undone by a CLI ONLY command run as root. There probably should be a switch for “Until reboot” or “turn off lock down mode.” But it must be CLI to keep the curious nontechie users (including grubby fingered students who know more about the computer in the classroom than the lecturer does)

When disabled all config controls are returned to the user and the GUI used to fix a problem or change a file association. But with lock down mode on the staff now rely on IT support which usually the way both staff and support want it.

BANG! The number one complaint about KDE that it’s ‘system settings’ is too complex and leads to system breaks and confusion is gone.
“Ah, but now you can lock down all config so users cannot change a thing!” The KDE team can retort.

Enterprise much happier, Average Joe much happier, and, in theory Gnome users much happier since they perceive control of the UI as a bug… which, as I say, in a mass deployment, kinda is.

If KDE can lock down the UI MORE than Gnome then KDE will appeal much more to OEMs and Bug Business.

Logically lock down mode should also be allowed to be applied to new users, doubtless by a tickbox but, once enabled cannot be disabled except by CLI.

But wait, I’m not finished… There is a second step. [Er, these are long term goals, mind, that would need to be carefully implemented with much beta testing and user feedback! I’m not suggesting for 5.17 here and I suggest goal 1 before goal 2.]

2. SIMPLIFY KDE FOR USERS WITH “HOW DO IT?”

Yeah, I was tech support once; for a software company catering to truck drivers with an average reading age of 10. I also had to write the help files and the system manual. Yeah. Reading-age-of-10.

Invariably the call would start with “What’s the procedure for...” meaning, “can you tell me the exact key presses and mouse clicks in exact order?” and “How do I?”

So when I wrote the help file and manual I worked “with the wood and not against it.” Both the menu and help files were written around the question…

“How do I…?”
Then each chapter was based on a function of the software but from the users point of view such as:
“How do I… collect my system data?”
“How do I… get my monthly reports?”
“How do I… program fuel key.”

In the manual I even have the ‘procedure’ as a flow diagram and the “How do I” included each button to press in picture form. Literally; “You press the yellow button (we had colour buttons on a device they collected data from” and then the red button and then then red button again and then you type in the date...” Users would just look for which colour buttons to press in which order from the manual to get a job done.

It worked! Support calls dropped by about 70% and I... kinda put myself out of a job. I got another one before the small company I worked for could find no reason to employ me anymore. [And then I eventually headed out to Indonesia to move into education.]

Well, the same system can be done for system settings in KDE AND a deal with a lot of support questions in the simplest possible way that matched how users think which is; “How do I?” [Next post for more]