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  • #91
    Please consider skipping an release and do intensive bug fixing! that`s more important than feature at the moment! Sure, we will have a great 5.17 release, but it will have the same bugs like 5.16....

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    • #92
      DIRECT one button jobs.
      SIMPLE

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      • #93
        For me what I wish is not a review of functionalities or UI but a review of the UX or how things are presented to and used by the user.
        Trying to get change the "when you let developers create UI"

        For example, the way you add a printer of me is a good example of why a normal user (take your computer illiterate grand-mother for exemple), will get scared or fall on the ground spasming due to the trauma:
        First you get a list of ALL the options available on how to MANUALLY add a printer and somewhere in the middle of that list you're going have a "discovered" printer is lost in the middle of the list.
        Why is it that the only actual printer is not the first item of the list ? or even better how about having the "Manually Add a printer with a URI" not be displayed and be an option (something like "Add manually") you click on because the automated discovery didn't display what you wanted
        Next screen is then going to have you chose the driver for the printer, same thing, you get a giant list of ALL the possible brand of printer available on the market, then be a list of ALL the printers for that brand regardless of the fact that you already have the printer's information since you selected it in the previous list.
        You do have a "Recommended drivers" entry for the generic on but just like before it's in the list of all the other possible options

        Take "Discover" the software center, in my opinion it's not usable unless you already know what you are looking for and even then I'm pretty most of use are just going to pop a terminal and use the packet manager directly. In the end it's a "list" of software but the way it's presented doesn't make you want to look around the way a "store" is making you do it. Also take a look at the installed list, it's giant mess of installed packages that mixes core feature like firewall, common apps like firefox and every else (font/plasmoid/...)
        Also it's decorated from the menu plasmoid "software-update"

        So If I had a wish for the next goal is to streamline the user experience - Wizard where you don't feel like you are doing your tax returns, UIs where multiple data-set are not segregated into their own model/view idiom but are mixed together to make the whole more unified, coherent and increase a standardized synergy between features.

        It kind of turned into a rant but that's what kills me when you have good and powerful feature, the UI is shiny but the way it's put together is unusable.

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        • #94
          OK, long post - I do detail but worth it for the KDE dev team. Just joined to post this!

          First of all I want to say "thank you" to the KDE dev team for excellent work on both Plsma and the apps. (I live and die by Kdenlive!.) It is the DE I longed for even in my Windows days. I will not compare with other DE's but for many of us who like the Windows 9x Menu system which worked - and Microsoft blew it and had to go back after Windows 8.x - KDE (Plasma) is the bright morning star. KDE is immediately understandable to new users and is helping me get Linux converts here... in Indonesia!

          [Those who want KDE to be more like Gnome are rather missing the point. If people want the Gnome way then better they go with the real thing than KDE being an imitation.]

          Also note that I am working with a local University running Windows XP on possible migration to Linux and I have shown the Neon and they have been blow away because KDE is familiar, simple to start with but powerful when needed. I am starting a trial on one machine for staff of one department to see how usable Linux is and KDE was the immediate 'Go to' more than any particular distro.

          So a real, HUGE "Thank you" from me!!! I think KDE is generally wonderful!

          However, just one small request but over something driving me mad and makes both Linux and KDE look bad to new users.

          Although it's arguably a Gnome problem, could KDE include some setting for editing GTK fonts and screen colors? The facility for such no longer exists in GTK DE and nobody from the Gnome branch seems interested taking the view that defaults are defaults - no change allowed unless you are ready to go to the command line and/or start editing config files by hand. I do NOT use default screen colours or fonts and I try and save (further) eye strain by using black on grey rather than black on pure screaming white. Note that I am required by my work to use small form laptops, rather cheap and 'disposable' laptops (not Chromebooks) so I have to handle small, cheap displays along with a lot of users here in Indonesia who cannot afford developer level laptops. [Average monthly wage here is around $300 and lots of unemployment.]

          In KDE Neon in particular, which I use a lot, the GTK app menu fonts sizes are always too small, highlighting is usually light grey on pale white and GTK apps become a pain to use. I even have occasions when I have white text on a white background and it cannot be changed! The Gnome tweak-tool itself does not handle fonts or colours and the old Gnome color tool only works with a few GTK 2 apps and not on GTK 3 apps at all. This all leads app display disarray and confusion with new users - yes, I am getting converts with the delight that is KDE - but there is confusion with different apps having different fonts and colours. Using the setting "Apply QT colours to GTK apps" does not work in 9 out of 10 cases. I know. I've tried it all.

          I know it's only a matter of changing the .css files for the GTK themes but that's fiddly when editing manually. A GUI for a bit of text editing I would not have thought was too hard for a real developer, which I am not and I really have not got time. As it stands, nobody in any GTK based DE to date seems interested in making GTK app fonts and desktop colours controllable by the user and it makes apps very messy in a distro like Neon making KDE look bad when it's not KDE's fault but the Gnome team are clear that customisation is no longer seen as a feature of the DE save by editing text files directly.

          So it's a big beg from me on a minor matter but would look good if KDE was the solution to a Gnome/GTK 'problem!'

          And if the University goes with Linux KDE - very likely methinks - I'll get them to send you guys donations! [OK, I hate 'Discover' but I can see how it works on a smartphone and I rush and install Synaptic anyway so I won't rant on that!]

          Thanks again - I love the KDE DE and the apps!

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Jedinovice View Post
            .......
            Awesome bro, this is one of the most well thought out and considered posts I've read in a long time and I totally agree with you.You are 100% spot on, if KDE devs can solve the dilemma you describe here then that fixes the whole "GTK breaks themes constantly" problem. I don't know if that's something the KDE devs could actually do, but if they could, they would be my hero's.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Jedinovice View Post
              Although it's arguably a Gnome problem, could KDE include some setting for editing GTK fonts and screen colors? The facility for such no longer exists in GTK DE and nobody from the Gnome branch seems interested taking the view that defaults are defaults - no change allowed unless you are ready to go to the command line and/or start editing config files by hand. I do NOT use default screen colours or fonts and I try and save (further) eye strain by using black on grey rather than black on pure screaming white. Note that I am required by my work to use small form laptops, rather cheap and 'disposable' laptops (not Chromebooks) so I have to handle small, cheap displays along with a lot of users here in Indonesia who cannot afford developer level laptops. [Average monthly wage here is around $300 and lots of unemployment.]
              Here you go. I only have GIMP and Geeqie installed, but they take the themes set from here...and Wine programs when winecfg is set to use GTK3 themes (though dark themes sometimes have issues with Wine/Windows programs).



              Worse comes to worse, the MATE or LXDesktop theme tools work for this task too. I used to have to use the LXDesktop tool (lxappearance-gtk3) with XFCE because it didn't always set all the GTK3 themes and mouse icons correctly during the GTK2 to 3 transition and I've used it with Plasma before too. Might have some luck with this, though I haven't used it in years.

              Lol, just realized that I need to change my GTK theme settings to Oxygen to match the rest of my theme settings.

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              • #97
                Firstly, apologies if the quoting or formatting goes to pieces here. Phrononix is being very strangely on my browser (Slimjet) at this time and Print Preview is causing the browser to hang. Dunno why. So, since 'QUOTE' tends to go wrong due to, er, pilot error, I dropping back to the olde world of '>' to indicate quotes so I can get something readable. Can't find an edit feature in this forum either... Ouch!

                >Here you go. I only have GIMP and Geeqie installed, but they take the themes set from here...and Wine programs when winecfg is set to use GTK3 themes (though dark themes sometimes have issues with Wine/Windows programs).

                ‚Äč

                Yes.. except you cannot set the screen colours or font there. I swear. You can specify a theme, yes, I know, but you cannot tweak the theme to change the screen colours or fonts. You can ASSIGN a theme - sure. But you cannot edit the theme without going deep into manually editing .css files. Er, this counts double when you are trying to demo software such as GIMP on aging OHP a the local University where the 'green' output has busted and so everything is a shade of cyan.
                I'm not saying GTK apps cannot be configured AT ALL. You can use Gnome-tweaks (though results seem very hit and miss and I am not sure it's being maintained properly and it does not work for GTK 2 apps where you need the older Gnome-tweak-tool which is also hit and miss...)
                So I can set the KDE theme to Oxygen and GTK2 and 3 to Oxygen. But then I specify a bolded font for the menus in KDE and black on grey for the text windows and half my apps stay with tiny, non-bolded text for menus and black on screaming white or... as in the case of GIMP 2.10, white on black which, when I tried to apply QT colours to GTK apps lead to black on black in text windows! So now I cannot use QT colours on GTK apps. I swear, I've gone into this. My problem is not with setting themes for GTK apps, it's about setting font sizes, attributes and app colours.

                The default font for GTK apps in Neon is too small even on minimal size/res screen displays. Kubuntu is is bit better but I know that Neon is not interested in non-QT apps and does not spent much time on configuring GTK apps. But however I look at it, I can't fix colour and font problems in GTK apps!
                Honest!



                >Worse comes to worse, the MATE or LXDesktop theme tools work for this task too. I used to have to use the LXDesktop tool (lxappearance-gtk3) with XFCE because it didn't always set all the GTK3 themes and mouse icons correctly during the GTK2 to 3 transition and I've used it with Plasma before too. Might have some luck with this, though I haven't used it in years.

                Tried these. Don't work no more. Did they ever allow font and colour setting, BTW? I could not get them to run!
                And, given we talking how to improve KDE Plasma here, rather than Gnome or Mate or LXDE, then I don't see why adding a extra button in 'GTK appearence' for, "tweak theme' which would allow for just picking fonts and colours. It's still a win for KDE and it also means KDE distros can match Plasma and GTK app defaults without hacking text files around or using a GTK tool. I know the coding solution is simple so it's a quick fix with quite a large return!

                >Lol, just realized that I need to change my GTK theme settings to Oxygen to match the rest of my theme settings.[/QUOTE]

                Fair enough, but watch what happens when you change your windows colour to light grey and set the menu font to 'Bold' in KDE. I dare say you do not but I do! And then it falls over! It's not that GTK apps cannot be tweaked - there is the Gnome-tweaks tool for that - but, in line with the Mac way, fonts and colours cannot be set by a GUI.

                UNLESS... someone does know of a tool that works but I've been hunting online for such a tool for years and the answer returned has always been to date; "You need to edit the .css files and here is the guide to the fields for you to edit manually.."
                I swear!

                If LX-appearance has been updated mind - I grant I gave up looking for a solution about a year ago and I have just passed end of year exam season which has been hell on Earth so I haven't been doing techie stuff, then I will happily take a look! But, as you say; "If the worse comes to the worse.." well, the idea is to prevent the worse come to the worse and have a simple fix in Plasma itself. I know it's a simple code matter. "Load in fields from text - change via GUI, write new file. End."
                So thanks for the heads up and if there are new renderings of tweak tools I will be checking them out.
                But I still say having the tweaks in Plasma would be A Good Thing(TM.) Plasma is not Gnome and should not be working on the Gnome principle of "install another app to change something."

                [And, as I say, with no preview working and edit facility here... I apologise for any formatting issues. And typos. Methinks I will have to switch to Chromium for this forum.

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                • #98
                  [Hmm.. This forum seems to work in Chromium but not Slimjet. Note to self there. Now is there any 'edit' function?]

                  >Awesome bro, this is one of the most well thought out and considered posts I've read in a long time and I totally agree with you.You are 100% spot on, if KDE devs can solve the dilemma you describe here then that fixes the whole "GTK breaks themes constantly" problem. I don't know if that's something the KDE devs could actually do, but if they could, they would be my hero's.[/QUOTE]

                  Well I'm glad somebody appreciates me!

                  As it is I actually KNOW that solving the GTK colours and fonts is easily fixed. It is, after only, only a matter of adding a GUI to the process of editing text files. I know, I looked it up in my frustration. Indeed, KDE goes half way with allowing theme application to GTK 2 and 3 apps in 'System settings' already. But you cannot hone the fonts or change system/app colours. Gnome-tweaks has become the equivalent of KDE system settings but, in (now) typical Gnome style you have to install it yourself and... half the time the tweaks do not work and certainly not for GTK 2 apps AND... no colour or font settings.

                  So I know the solution is simple but I am not a programmer. Well, I did some BASIC, Pascal and Assembler back in the day but strictly amateur on Commodore 8 bitters! These days my 'amateur time' is spend splicing together anime music videos with Kdenlive! Well, a guys gotta have a hobby. Some men seek world domination. I'm lame and prefer watching anime.

                  Anyway...! *If* I were on the KDE dev team I would add an extra button in system settings 'GTK themes' under 'Application style' to fine tune the fonts and colours. Then, as you note, the GTK apps could be 'forced' to finally integrate with Plasma and, if I dare say, Plasma would have one more feature Gnome (and Gnome based UI's such as Cinnamon) does not; because, and I'm not knocking the Gnome way for those that appreciate it, Gnome users do not like configuration options via the GUI. It's not the Gnome way. I actually wish Gnome coders would add the option to Gnome tweaks but that just does not seem to be the Gnome way, just like Mac. When it comes to colours and fonts - "Stick with the defaults" is the approach, seemingly in line with the smartphone UI approach of Gnome in general. [I have students, mind, who now type all their essays, even down to their University thesis on smartphone. So the smartphone way is kinda popular even for content production, to be fair!]

                  The only fiddly bit is that changing the fonts and colours for GTK apps would be by theme only since everything is held ONLY in the associate them. Change theme and you change colour. KDE is a bit different in that respect. But still better than what we have now which is looking up fields online and editing the .css files manually and hoping you don't screw things up!


                  And, as I say, I live and die by Gwenview, Okular, K3B, Kdenlive and the like so real credit to the KDE team for quality work with powerful but highly usable apps. I turn heads here now in Indonesia.

                  Cheers Bro! And please excuse types and missing words. I'm a dreadful proof reader and I can't find any 'edit post' feature. I'm new here!!

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Charlie68 View Post
                    I don't need to install Total Commander, Dolphin has everything I need, it's graphically good and integrates very well in Plasma. When I used Gnome, Nautilus was a bit limited for my needs.
                    Then WHY complain in the first place? And you got it in reverse. Krusader is Total Commander clone, not the opposite. I also doubt that Dolphin let's you add/write files into archive on-the-fly or connect you to ftp servers on dual-pane file manager. Not to mention doing batch renames, verifying file checksums, comparing files by content for differences, hex editing, split/combine files etc.. About integration, Krusader is QT5 application very much like Dolphin. Just think 'improved Midnight Commander using QT5'.

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                    • Originally posted by aht0 View Post
                      Then WHY complain in the first place? And you got it in reverse. Krusader is Total Commander clone, not the opposite. I also doubt that Dolphin let's you add/write files into archive on-the-fly or connect you to ftp servers on dual-pane file manager. Not to mention doing batch renames, verifying file checksums, comparing files by content for differences, hex editing, split/combine files etc.. About integration, Krusader is QT5 application very much like Dolphin. Just think 'improved Midnight Commander using QT5'.
                      Most likely in my previous messages I could not make myself understood (English is not my mother tongue), I didn't complain, I just said that the Nautilus file manager for me was too limited, while with Dolphin I find all that which I need. Furthermore I am always against using a file manager different from the default one, because the file manager is an integral part of the DE, so in my opinion it makes little sense to use a different one. It's just my opinion ...

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