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  • #21
    Originally posted by Bsdisbetter View Post

    That has been the case for decades - DOD licensing through legislation denying export to certain countries. Think Pgp.
    I don't think Iran or North Korea cares if the license on any piece of software they are interested in forbids the use for the purpose of developing weapons of mass destruction.
    Just as rapists are not likely to care about the "do not rape me" bracelets handed out by the police in Sweden.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by Britoid View Post
      Anyone and everyone should be encouraged and helped to get into programming and working on projects. There's nothing about programming that restricts it to white heterosexual males, so I think it is worth raising an eyebrow as to why the demographic of people who take computer-related jobs are dominated by them (taking into account the demographic of the location).
      I think there isn't really any good research into that, it is just assumed that the reason must be discrimination. I think separating people by the racial categories used in the US census is pretty stupid to begin with (2 billion people are classified as "Asian"...), which already makes research very difficult.

      I think there are a few factors at work here:
      * Language: To work in OS projects you need to have very good / above average English communication skills
      * Economics: People in poorer countries don't have the free time and access to the necessary hardware and infrastructure
      * Interest: Some people just aren't interested in the work (there is a big difference between men and women here for example)
      * Culture: Some cultures don't do well in the open source development model since they don't deal with criticism the way people from Western cultures do.

      I have no proof for that, but I haven't seen any credible evidence of widespread (intentional) discrimination. By and large people who participate in open source are probably more tolerant than average simply because you already have a very diverse set of people you have to get along with.

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      • #23
        Originally posted by uid313 View Post

        I don't think Iran or North Korea cares if the license on any piece of software they are interested in forbids the use for the purpose of developing weapons of mass destruction.
        Just as rapists are not likely to care about the "do not rape me" bracelets handed out by the police in Sweden.
        Maybe, but an exporter is prevented from exporting under penalty. That remains true. That's the license.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by nils_ View Post
          * Language: To work in OS projects you need to have very good / above average English communication skills.
          People like making excuses to explain things.
          English is not my native language, but we learnt it in school and was the best student in class at English.

          Originally posted by nils_ View Post
          * Economics: People in poorer countries don't have the free time and access to the necessary hardware and infrastructure.
          I grew up as one of six children in a lower class family.
          I never had anythings like phones, game consoles, etc but my dad managed to a Intel 386 from work which I familiarized myself inimitably with.

          Some people want to learn, some people find it boring and make excuses.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by uid313 View Post
            People like making excuses to explain things.
            English is not my native language, but we learnt it in school and was the best student in class at English.
            English isn't my mother tongue either, but in my case my school was lazy at teaching us. Most of my English skills are self-taught.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by tildearrow View Post

              English isn't my mother tongue either, but in my case my school was lazy at teaching us. Most of my English skills are self-taught.
              Your English skills are better than a lot of people who learn it as a first language.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by dkasak View Post

                Claptrap. In fact *none* of the girls I've worked with have been tomboys. Typical incel perspective ...
                Oh nice projection of your incelness onto others there buddy, craving women in tech because you don't know how to talk to people and want to get laid but are shut down every time because you're a creepy sex pest.

                Meanwhile the actual science on the matter, says that due to tomboys being neurologically masculine, and thus interested in things are much more likely to be interested in STEM than non-tomboy women.

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                • #28
                  ,Abuse of political correctness ....
                  Last edited by onicsis; 05-08-2019, 05:27 PM.

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by nils_ View Post

                    I think there isn't really any good research into that, it is just assumed that the reason must be discrimination. I think separating people by the racial categories used in the US census is pretty stupid to begin with (2 billion people are classified as "Asian"...), which already makes research very difficult.
                    Discrimination is often touted as a reason. That's why we have these affirmative action programs, but ultimately what they do is sacrifice ability and aptitude for placing the <insert specific gender/race/religion> person in that position to fill quotas. It seems to be symptomatic of democracy these days where the majority is beholden to the minority, be it lobby-groups or whatever.

                    In probably all western cultures, this is now the case. Parliaments have quotas, sports have quotas (or say they do), workplaces have quotas and the last bastion seems to be open source projects. Fortunately, even if you're heavily invested in a project, if it becomes too PC and too oriented to making everyone 'feel comfortable' then you can walk away from an open source project. It's not so easy in a job.

                    Originally posted by nils_ View Post
                    I think there are a few factors at work here:
                    * Language: To work in OS projects you need to have very good / above average English communication skills
                    * Economics: People in poorer countries don't have the free time and access to the necessary hardware and infrastructure
                    * Interest: Some people just aren't interested in the work (there is a big difference between men and women here for example)
                    * Culture: Some cultures don't do well in the open source development model since they don't deal with criticism the way people from Western cultures do.

                    I have no proof for that, but I haven't seen any credible evidence of widespread (intentional) discrimination. By and large people who participate in open source are probably more tolerant than average simply because you already have a very diverse set of people you have to get along with.
                    Language: Yes true but there are localized non-english projects, so that's not an entire barrier. I've worked on projects with people with various levels of English and it is hard for non-native speakers to sometimes add their input, however I have never been in one where people with English as a second language have been excluded or not listened to; never. It's also true that many European countries have good English teaching - some would say better than native speaking countries... :-)

                    For better or worse, English is the world language. It dominates business, therefore it dominates commerce, therefore it's a language you need to know. (Surprising seeing as only a few hundred years ago, even the English didn't speak English!)

                    Hey, perhaps we need to all learn Esperanto?

                    Economics: Yes, absolutely.

                    Interest: Again, yes. Just because women, for example, are under-represented in project X, does not mean those in project X are excluding them. It just means they're not interested.
                    In fact how do people know the gender of someone in a project unless they tell them? You certainly can't go from names. Some use real names, others don't. It's a fact of open source.

                    Cultures: You're probably correct. Openly criticizing someone from say, South/South East Asia can cause them great shame. However, if you're in a collaboration where you stuff up through negligence, then you take the lumps whether it's culturally acceptable or not. Unfair? Absolutely not, because after all, who brings their culture into a discussion on software in the first place? I mean, seriously? Snowflakes!

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Luke_Wolf View Post
                      Oh nice projection of your incelness onto others there buddy, craving women in tech because you don't know how to talk to people and want to get laid but are shut down every time because you're a creepy sex pest.
                      Hahahaha! That would be *you* projecting there, "buddy". Also I didn't say I was "craving"" women in tech - I just pointed out that all the women in tech that I know are *not* tomboys. If you can't handle that, the issue is yours.

                      Originally posted by Luke_Wolf View Post
                      Meanwhile the actual science on the matter, says that due to tomboys being neurologically masculine, and thus interested in things are much more likely to be interested in STEM than non-tomboy women.
                      Claptrap! That's the same kind of BS that people used to use to justify racism - invoking the term "science" like it somehow validates whatever you say after it. It's *you* that have a problem with women ... it's on display, yo ...

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