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Systemd-Free Debian "Devuan" Planning Their First Developer Gathering This Spring

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Danielsan View Post
    I wouldn't compare openrc-run with systemd, systemd handles much more things than openrc,
    The actual init running as PID1 does not. Bulk of the systemd ecosystem is split in daemons doing stuff on their own, not running as root nor as PID1, all the sandboxing and stuff is done by linux kernel (which is why also OpenRC can do similar stuff as it uses the same kernel features https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/OpenRC/CGroups )

    By the way this is not the issue,
    Yeah, let's shift the goalposts now that your first argument was shot down.

    the reason why I am against systemd it is just because it sticks all of us with Linux while I would like to see other kernels in the game field, systemd now means no options.
    Not really. You could port systemd to FreeBSD just like they ported OpenRC (in TrueOS aka PC-BSD), you just need to disable he additional features only linux kernel has or try to make them work with the features of FreeBSD kernel.

    I mean, TrueOS started to adopt OpenRC in 2016, and while now the core is OK now, 3 years later, it's still not upstreamable in FreeBSD as they still need to rewrite init scripts for all the packages to actually use OpenRC (of course they do work fine as they are, but it's not the point of OpenRC). https://reviews.freebsd.org/D18578

    Porting systemd would mostly mean finding a decent replacement for cgroups (linux kernel feature) in FreeBSD kernel. Lo and behold, FreeBSD has something like that already https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.IS...rcelimits.html
    You would not need to rewrite init scripts at all, you could just copy service files from other distros or from the upstream software if they ship their own.

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    • #92
      I am looking forward to the Devuan conference! I am sure I will have a great time watching the life stream:-) Yes, I do spend *way* too much time on following up on Devuan -- but it is just so hilarious to watch:-)

      Originally posted by Danielsan View Post
      Devuan has been creating because a pool of Debian Sys Admin were skeptical about systemd
      Sysadmins do not make developers or even packagers. You immediately notice that when looking at Devuan;-)

      Originally posted by Danielsan View Post
      ... and the lacking of manners from the systemd devs contributed to make what is natural in floos: a fork.
      They did not. They built a hand-full of packages and redirect traffic to the debian servers for the rest. Most changes are about theming, not about functionality.

      They even undid much of the "de-libsystemd-ification" they did in their first release by now: They do not have the man-power to maintain that many packages!

      Originally posted by Danielsan View Post
      They switched from sysvinit to openRC.
      They did not. The default is sysv-init, just as it used to be before in Debian. All the inits (but systemd and for some really strange reason file-rc;-) that are available in Debian are also available in Devuan. There is no work happening in Devuan to improve on what Debian offers -- no extra scripts for inits other than sysv or anything like that.

      A community that shares a vision of where they want to go can do great products. Look at void Linux for an example of that. The Devuan community on the other hand is only united in what they do not want. Changing anything is bound to end up in a shit storm in such a setup. Look at the devuan mailing list: You will find plenty of examples of this.

      Originally posted by Danielsan View Post
      Now the debate is not anymore between systemd vs sysvinit but systemd vs openrc,
      Systemd has changed the game, openrc is not even on the same playing field. There is no discussion -- just some yelling from the side lines from the few people that are still with openrc:-)

      Originally posted by Danielsan View Post
      ... and of course I don't want entering in this battle field, I can only say is if you prefer handle your server through scripts instead of a monolithic control center does make it sense, because if fails a service it is something isolated while if fails systemd or any components that rely upon it fails all your system.
      You have not really worked with systemd:-) It enables so many more things to hook scripts into...

      Originally posted by Danielsan View Post
      There a lot of people that prefer working with script and are switching from Debian to Devuan, but you can't see them because those people do not belongs to Red Hat, Suse, Canonical etc...
      Where do you see these people?

      I am sure all of them will show up at the Devuan conference. If it sells out, then you will run into 70 people. That's the maximum for the venue.

      For comparison: The first systemd conference had over 200 attendees.

      Originally posted by Danielsan View Post
      The success of Devuan is true and if take a look around yourself, you can see everyday new distro based on Devuan, and now all the derivates based on apt/deb are Ubuntu based or Devuan based.
      Only if you count every theme change as a new "distribution".

      There is nothing interesting happening anywhere in or around Devuan.

      The Devuan gitlab instance is horribly outdated (and unsupported), the CI is totally idle for days and weeks at a time and over half the build bots are offline. The forums are mostly dead. The mailing lists are a cesspit of misinformation, stupidity, FUD and conspiracy mongering. The weekly team meeting notes are mostly empty -- except for some occasional chit-chat. Distrowatch does not list Devuan as "without systemd": So far they have not managed to get rid of the systemd source package and still ship stuff built from that in their default install. The code they have come up with is dysfunctional and incomplete -- or horribly insecure.

      I really do not see where where you take your enthusiasm for Devuan from. Some few Devuan people are nowadays helping Debian to maintain sysv-init, but that is pretty much the only positive thing that came out of this cluster fuck.

      Take a look at void Linux: They do "no systemd" right -- with some idea of what they want to do.
      Last edited by Karl Napf; 01 March 2019, 03:36 PM.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
        ...
        You are totally wrong, I am using Debian and systemd everyday. First of all people are free to adapt their work as their needs, this is the strength of open source, and open source without alternative doesn't mean nothing. Devuan devs achieved their goals, I don't belive their effort was made just because against systemd, this motivation is really weak for a project so ambitious. And This is not a debate systemd vs openrc. Runit, systemd, openRC, Shepherd, are all good init systems, and all of those are better than sysvinit.

        I would prefer a Debian init agnostic not bounded with a particular init, this was been quite vicious, because it was forced indirectly from many directions all related with Red Hat, fine! It puts the money and then it leads the direction. I don't know the reason but someone want systemd hardcoded in Linux, hence every day a piece of gnu will be stripped out, we already knew the next piece will be grub.

        All this behavior sucks, Linux sucks, and a lot, so I am pretty upset. Technical reason haven't the priority over the freedom, also the freedom of choice, or the freedom to make a distro with the worst init system ever.

        Fortunately systemd is becoming a fat giant each day, and every day is becoming the main target for the linux attackers, honestly I am just waiting the day that systemd will implode by itself...
        Last edited by Danielsan; 01 March 2019, 04:18 PM.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Karl Napf View Post
          ...
          Blah, Blah, Blah...

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Danielsan View Post
            I would prefer a Debian init agnostic not bounded with a particular init, this was been quite vicious, because it was forced indirectly from many directions all related with Red Hat, fine! It puts the money and then it leads the direction. I don't know the reason but someone want systemd hardcoded in Linux, hence every day a piece of gnu will be stripped out, we already knew the next piece will be grub.
            You're going to contribute to help package mantainers and authors create service files for every single service system? And what's wrong with GNU pieces being replaced? Grub is LONG overdue to be replaced.

            Originally posted by Danielsan View Post
            Fortunately systemd is becoming a fat giant each day, and every day is becoming the main target for the linux attackers, honestly I am just waiting the day that systemd will implode by itself...
            systemd itself is made up of many applications, and the code is pretty clean. It's not a bloated program by any definition (Linux is far more bloated).

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Britoid View Post
              You're going to contribute to help package mantainers and authors create service files for every single service system? And what's wrong with GNU pieces being replaced? Grub is LONG overdue to be replaced.
              GNU does care about freedom, Linux does not care that much about freedom. For me, as end user, GNU is more important than Linux. I don't really care about Linux, if tomorrow will have a valid alternative to Linux I can still use GNU over it, but if tomorrow GNU dies because systemd has stripped out every pieces of it, what alternative have we available? Android? ChromeOS? No way...

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Danielsan View Post

                GNU does care about freedom, Linux does not care that much about freedom. For me, as end user, GNU is more important than Linux. I don't really care about Linux, if tomorrow will have a valid alternative to Linux I can still use GNU over it, but if tomorrow GNU dies because systemd has stripped out every pieces of it, what alternative have we available? Android? ChromeOS? No way...
                Um, BSD, BusyBox etc.

                We can pretty easily replace the GNU components at the moment, not so much the kernel.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by jacob View Post
                  2. Everything shall be buggy, error prone, brittle and require a full time admin to perform the most trivial of tasks
                  What? You have a problem with full employment for neckbeards?

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                    -why are you blaming systemd for a packaging issue in Arch (and this isn't the first time the fuckers break systemd packages)? I mean that's Arch packagers changing name of the systemd library package and causing a conflict and massive breakage on update, which is imho VERY BAD as it's a core library, how is that a systemd issue?
                    That upgrade was transparent and did not cause massive breakage on any of the several Arch systems I upgraded.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Danielsan View Post
                      But if you want pointing out the discrepancies between the initial grandstanding and the reality, I can take out a lot of companies that made even bolder claims but no one said nothing, for example I remember one in particular that promised a shiny and powerful mobile phone, a converging experience through all devices and a super brilliant DE and eventually threw everything in the garbage...
                      And the relevance of that to the discussion about Devuan and systemd is.... ?

                      Originally posted by Danielsan View Post
                      Devuan has been creating because a pool of Debian Sys Admin were skeptical about systemd and the lacking of manners from the systemd devs contributed to make what is natural in floos: a fork. They switched from sysvinit to openRC. Now the debate is not anymore between systemd vs sysvinit but systemd vs openrc, and of course I don't want entering in this battle field, I can only say is if you prefer handle your server through scripts instead of a monolithic control center does make it sense, because if fails a service it is something isolated while if fails systemd or any components that rely upon it fails all your system.
                      No one says that Devuan is somehow illegitimate; forks are natural in FOSS of course. That's what FOSS is for.

                      But there are two issues here. The mockery that Devuan attracts and that its developers and users seem to resent so much is really their own fault. If they said "we personally don't want this because X or Y and we will fork Debian so that we can use it our way for our purposes", no-one sane would have anything against it. But instead they started whining about some sort of systemd conspiracy (where none exists), claimed to be speaking for more than exclusively themselves personally (which they never were), they even implied that the Linux community somehow owed to the views and wishes of Unix admins (it doesn't) and that Linux in general has a "duty" to be a Unix platform (it doesn't). They also promised in clear terms that Devuan would basically overtake and ultimately kill Debian (in fact despite Debian being old by Linux standards, its user base is growing faster than Devuan's).

                      The other problem is the debate about sysvinit, openrc etc. VUAs, for the most part, are willing to consider implementing "a better init daemon". Meanwhile the systemd side, which, judging solely by numbers, actually represents a crushing majority of the Linux development community, believes that a modern Linux system should not have an "init daemon" at all; instead, it should have an event and scope manager. That's why any discussion about openrc vs systemd is by definition meaningless. The former want to design better propellers; the latter want to throw all propellers away and use jet engines instead.

                      Originally posted by Danielsan View Post
                      There a lot of people that prefer working with script and are switching from Debian to Devuan, but you can't see them because those people do not belongs to Red Hat, Suse, Canonical etc...
                      And have you got any reliable data showing how many is "a lot"? Is it more than stories about a cousin's wife's friend, who started working as a SunOS sysadmin in the early 1980s?

                      Originally posted by Danielsan View Post
                      The success of Devuan is true and if take a look around yourself, you can see everyday new distro based on Devuan, and now all the derivates based on apt/deb are Ubuntu based or Devuan based.
                      The success of Devuan is certainly true. Even if Devuan only ever had a grand total of three users (of course I know it has many more), as long as they see an advantage in it and have the resources to maintain it, it will be a success for them.

                      But looking around myself, I would say that all relevant derivatives using deb/apt are Ubuntu-based, period. Is there any single statistically significant distro based on Devuan? I'm afraid not even Devuan itself weighs for more than the n-th decimal digit within the Linux community. Once again, that's not inherently bad and that doesn't take away its sovereign right to exist; but in practical terms it puts it somewhere alongside the likes of Rebecca Black Linux or Ubuntu Satanic Edition.
                      Last edited by jacob; 01 March 2019, 07:54 PM.

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