Systemd-Free Debian "Devuan" Planning Their First Developer Gathering This Spring

[Danielsan]

Lmao success?

The project will never grow to anything except to please a few neckbeards who still think it's the 90s. A system built on shell scripts is an awful idea, there's a reason Windows and OS X both stopped using DOS/Shell scripts.

If you're going to complain about something monolithic, might as well stop using Linux too. That's as monolithic (too monolithic imho) as it comes.

I bet openRC is a bit more better than a 90ish init system.

[cybertraveler]

Did you fully understand his claims? Because I have the feeling that you didn't.

For the sake of clarity, I'll point out that he claimed RELATION between two things, but this does NOT mean that every mental ill is anti-systemd NOR that every anti-systemd is mentallly ill. He also said that there aren't valid arguments against systemd, which is more debatable but still close enough, so it gets a pass from me.

It's like 7 posts into a thread of systemd where the usual morons posted the same nonsense they usually post, plus something new and exciting like Weasel that told us his epic fail at using Arch in a VM and then proceeded to blame it on systemd.

But someone pointing out the obvious is a troll with a hidden agenda, and people agreeing with him are also Illuminati. Hmm, sounds about right.

Outside of the syntax & semantics of the language we use and their explicit, surface-level meaning, some of us have a deep level of comprehension of why particular words and phrases are chosen and what the intended of effect of them is supposed to be. Assuming that you're like me, I think you know exactly what arokh is up to (or is designed to do) and I think you comprehend exactly why I made the comment I did in response to arokh's comment. However, your post that I quoted above does not reflect a comprehension of what has been said. Your post is a mechnical, linguistic dance that you are performing in attempt to get a set of desired effects. I don't know how many other people here can see that, but I thought I'd let you know that I, for one; can.

I think your language skills would serve you well in a legal, political or propaganda oriented profession.

[starshipeleven]

They switched from sysvinit to openRC.

Good, OpenRC is at least a modern and decent init with basic features like service tracking and autorestart on crash, unified hotplugging and so on.

if you prefer handle your server through scripts instead of a monolithic control center does make it sense, because if fails a service it is something isolated while if fails systemd or any components that rely upon it fails all your system.

I'd like to point out that the failure of any component relying on systemd does not cause a cascade failure of systemd and of the rest of the system

That said, if OpenRC "fails" at the same catastrophic level, all the system comes down too, as it is too a "monolithic" control center even if it uses scripts and is much less-featured than systemd.

Let's look at an OpenRC "init script" https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handboo...ng/Initscripts

You see the very fist line? the so-called "shebang"?
#!/sbin/openrc-run

It means each script is run BY OpenRC init itself (which is the only way it can actually keep track of what processes are started or not and offer basic modern init features like process restart on crash and unified hotplug events), the scripts are still complete and most will still work if you call them on their own (after you change that to /bin/sh), but you will lose the OpenRC features.

you can see everyday new distro based on Devuan, and now all the derivates based on apt/deb are Ubuntu based or Devuan based.

Plain wrong
Debian derivatives: https://distrowatch.com/search.php?o...=Active#simple

Debian without systemd: https://distrowatch.com/search.php?o...=Active#simple (it seems there is only one Devuan derivative in there)

[starshipeleven]

Because I don't have arch on my main machine so of course the point of VMs is to test stuff out.

I have my doubts. Why you do stupid shit like mounting a ro overlay on /usr "to save space" when you don't even grasp the basics of the distro? You are asking for trouble.

Because I don't care if it is its fault or not, the point is that it always gets in my way. And it is always ONLY systemd. Granted I didn't have many issues at all but 2 out of 2 issues and BOTH are systemd kind of grinds my gears. Can't call it coincidence.

Seriously what the fuck.

I just told you that the library fuckup was done by the distro's package manager (or something else, more likely it was you doing stupid shit with /usr or other stuff you didn't tell), and you proceed to say you "don't care that it is systemd fault or not", then proceed to blame systemd for this issue again.

Are you seriously trying to channel debianxfce's spirit? Because that's right into his alley of mind-fuckery.

[starshipeleven]

obviously not,

So it's like I thought,
"it's ages since I've seen a sound card without a working mixer, standalone or integrated in the motherboard"
just means that you haven't looked at anything remotely modern

don't buy crap hardware

It's not 1996 anymore. You can't tell the difference between hardware mixing on and software mixing on the same card. Which is why true hardware mixing is long gone on anything integrated, and is not common on dedicated sound cards.

[tildearrow]

Gnome3: a full screen start menu is horrible to use in over 6 inch displays. Really stupid in a 28 inch 4K monitor. No desktop launchers and the desktop is keyboard focused. A graphical desktop with the poor mouse support, great. You must use a lot of gnome tweaks to make it your liking. The Xfce desktop is freely configurable and works great out of the box with 4K monitors.

More like "tablet-focused", but otherwise, very true. However, XFCE still uses GTK+2, so no official HiDPI support.

Wayland: is bloatware in desktop computers and never will be popular or replace X.

Bloatware? I doubt it is. But the protocol *is* incomplete, which makes you think like this.

Pulseaudio: buggy, resource hog and cause a lot of problems in gaming and other use. Alsa audio is stable and pro-audio uses jackd.

Is somewhat true, although it does work much better than before. Most of the problems are gone after using the JACK sink, but the " resource hog" problem remains.

Networkmanager: uses notifications from the driver stack, user has no control to the hardware. Wicd is stable and you can control your internet devices with it directly.

This does not make any sense...

Systemd: a typical redhat reinventing the wheel software. Adds no value to the sysV init in a point of a normal user view. Is a monolithic monster and documentation is out of the date. Create a service file and use init orders as documented. Does not work. Does not run with the android 3.19 kernel that is popular in embedded devices.

Adds no value? It adds value as it is capable of restarting a crashed service (unlike sysvinit which only gets the system up but doesn't care)

P. S. This thread is getting hreindl'd

[Danielsan]

Good, OpenRC is at least a modern and decent init with basic features like service tracking and autorestart on crash, unified hotplugging and so on.

I wouldn't compare openrc-run with systemd, systemd handles much more things than openrc, just because the minor complexity of openRC it is less prone to explode. By the way this is not the issue, the reason why I am against systemd it is just because it sticks all of us with Linux while I would like to see other kernels in the game field, systemd now means no options.

[lucrus]

So what, people who don't like SystemD aren't allowed to host events where they get together to work on alternatives without it? You're the one showing up the the comments of a news story about it just to moan about them...

Understanding the most basic words of a language is a prerequisite for any discussion. I never said they aren't allowed, please go read my post again. I only said they make me laugh my ass off. Am I not allowed?

[starshipeleven]

Outside of the syntax & semantics of the language we use and their explicit, surface-level meaning, some of us have a deep level of comprehension of why particular words and phrases are chosen and what the intended of effect of them is supposed to be.

I'll warn you (I think I already did sometime in the past) that doing such extrapolations by looking at text alone is dangerous. You are replacing what in real interactions you would actually see in body language and voice tone with your own imagination (i.e. how you think he would have said that if he was actually speaking to you)
This is human nature, where there is no information we tend to fill the blanks to find a pattern (usually the pattern we would like to find). It can be useful if properly guided, but if left unchecked you end up seeing what you want to see and hear what you want to hear.

Scientific method is the only true way.

Assuming that you're like me, I think you know exactly what arokh is up to (or is designed to do) and I think you comprehend exactly why I made the comment I did in response to arokh's comment.

We are similar to some extent, yes. But I cannot claim I know what he is up to, I do see that his style is "dropping a bomb" so to speak and then going away, but this is still within normal human behaviour. Not everyone is compelled to fight to the death in a discussion, but may feel like telling his ideas. Or he might like telling his ideas in a subtle trolling way.
I also see that eydee user has a similar style.

Your approach is very Philip Dick-ish, but you can't realistically tell a modern bot from a person with just casual interaction like that. Hell you can't even properly judge a man with that kind of interaction.

Your post is a mechnical, linguistic dance that you are performing in attempt to get a set of desired effects.

Isn't this what everyone does? We are all here because we like using mechanical linguistic dance to get a set of desired effects. This thread isn't about systemd or whatever, it's about each of us playing his own game and the interactions between our games. I like upholding the truth, others like shitting on systemd. And bots follow their algorithm too, which is no less mechanical than ours, albeit much less complex.

I think your language skills would serve you well in a legal, political or propaganda oriented profession.

Aaand here is where I can actually try to guess what you are thinking, as we have interacted already in the past. Will serve to show how accurate I can be given a decent amount of statistics. Yes either being right or wrong in this guess will still prove my point. I'm just that good.

No I'm not an agent.

That said, I already told you, I seek the truth, mostly for the sake of it as I'm not in a position where I can actually do much with it. I'm basically some form of modern philosopher or scholar in my free time.
I abhor those that bend truth as a job so I would rather not go in "legal, political or propaganda" professions.

[cybertraveler]

I'll warn you (I think I already did sometime in the past) that doing such extrapolations by looking at text alone is dangerous. You are replacing what in real interactions you would actually see in body language and voice tone with your own imagination (i.e. how you think he would have said that if he was actually speaking to you)
This is human nature, where there is no information we tend to fill the blanks to find a pattern (usually the pattern we would like to find). It can be useful if properly guided, but if left unchecked you end up seeing what you want to see and hear what you want to hear.

Those words sound pretty reasonable out of context. In context; not so much. Here's the context: they said:

"I think at this point it's clear to see that mental illness and anti-systemd behaviour are related. No valid argument against it has ever been presented to this day."

I'm not looking for something that isn't there. It's obvious to me that there is no argument present in that comment and the entity that wrote it is not merely giving an honest account of their opinion. It's vitriolic trolling almost certainly created with an intent to cause upset, drama and argument. The latter sentence of the comment is also so obviously false that I don't expect that any systemd supporter or user with an IQ over 70 would believe it to be true. I find it untenable that the author of that comment would believe it to be true either. Any reasonable person will accept that no init system or software product in general is perfect. Of course systemd has flaws or is inappropriate for some use cases; this is the case for all software. As such, valid arguments against it can be easily made.

Tell me again that I'm merely extrapolating. Tell me again that I am merely conjuring things that aren't there from my imagination. If you do so, it will only serve to demonstrate further to me that you are not at all interested in gaining understanding and communicating honestly and you are more interested in appearing a certain way or winning in a game.

I'm not playing a game with you.

I'm not going to add any more energy to this conversation with you. If you really are anything like me, you will likely have already understood the message that I have attempted to convey.