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Systemd-Free Debian "Devuan" Planning Their First Developer Gathering This Spring

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  • Originally posted by jacob View Post
    2. Everything shall be buggy, error prone, brittle and require a full time admin to perform the most trivial of tasks
    What? You have a problem with full employment for neckbeards?

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    • Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
      -why are you blaming systemd for a packaging issue in Arch (and this isn't the first time the fuckers break systemd packages)? I mean that's Arch packagers changing name of the systemd library package and causing a conflict and massive breakage on update, which is imho VERY BAD as it's a core library, how is that a systemd issue?
      That upgrade was transparent and did not cause massive breakage on any of the several Arch systems I upgraded.

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      • Originally posted by Danielsan View Post
        But if you want pointing out the discrepancies between the initial grandstanding and the reality, I can take out a lot of companies that made even bolder claims but no one said nothing, for example I remember one in particular that promised a shiny and powerful mobile phone, a converging experience through all devices and a super brilliant DE and eventually threw everything in the garbage...
        And the relevance of that to the discussion about Devuan and systemd is.... ?

        Originally posted by Danielsan View Post
        Devuan has been creating because a pool of Debian Sys Admin were skeptical about systemd and the lacking of manners from the systemd devs contributed to make what is natural in floos: a fork. They switched from sysvinit to openRC. Now the debate is not anymore between systemd vs sysvinit but systemd vs openrc, and of course I don't want entering in this battle field, I can only say is if you prefer handle your server through scripts instead of a monolithic control center does make it sense, because if fails a service it is something isolated while if fails systemd or any components that rely upon it fails all your system.
        No one says that Devuan is somehow illegitimate; forks are natural in FOSS of course. That's what FOSS is for.

        But there are two issues here. The mockery that Devuan attracts and that its developers and users seem to resent so much is really their own fault. If they said "we personally don't want this because X or Y and we will fork Debian so that we can use it our way for our purposes", no-one sane would have anything against it. But instead they started whining about some sort of systemd conspiracy (where none exists), claimed to be speaking for more than exclusively themselves personally (which they never were), they even implied that the Linux community somehow owed to the views and wishes of Unix admins (it doesn't) and that Linux in general has a "duty" to be a Unix platform (it doesn't). They also promised in clear terms that Devuan would basically overtake and ultimately kill Debian (in fact despite Debian being old by Linux standards, its user base is growing faster than Devuan's).

        The other problem is the debate about sysvinit, openrc etc. VUAs, for the most part, are willing to consider implementing "a better init daemon". Meanwhile the systemd side, which, judging solely by numbers, actually represents a crushing majority of the Linux development community, believes that a modern Linux system should not have an "init daemon" at all; instead, it should have an event and scope manager. That's why any discussion about openrc vs systemd is by definition meaningless. The former want to design better propellers; the latter want to throw all propellers away and use jet engines instead.

        Originally posted by Danielsan View Post
        There a lot of people that prefer working with script and are switching from Debian to Devuan, but you can't see them because those people do not belongs to Red Hat, Suse, Canonical etc...
        And have you got any reliable data showing how many is "a lot"? Is it more than stories about a cousin's wife's friend, who started working as a SunOS sysadmin in the early 1980s?

        Originally posted by Danielsan View Post
        The success of Devuan is true and if take a look around yourself, you can see everyday new distro based on Devuan, and now all the derivates based on apt/deb are Ubuntu based or Devuan based.
        The success of Devuan is certainly true. Even if Devuan only ever had a grand total of three users (of course I know it has many more), as long as they see an advantage in it and have the resources to maintain it, it will be a success for them.

        But looking around myself, I would say that all relevant derivatives using deb/apt are Ubuntu-based, period. Is there any single statistically significant distro based on Devuan? I'm afraid not even Devuan itself weighs for more than the n-th decimal digit within the Linux community. Once again, that's not inherently bad and that doesn't take away its sovereign right to exist; but in practical terms it puts it somewhere alongside the likes of Rebecca Black Linux or Ubuntu Satanic Edition.
        Last edited by jacob; 03-01-2019, 07:54 PM.

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        • Originally posted by Britoid View Post

          Um, BSD, BusyBox etc.

          We can pretty easily replace the GNU components at the moment, not so much the kernel.
          LOL have fun replacing glibc

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          • lol... yeah someone shows how microsoft is partnered with linux foundation...

            guess what the new kernel releases are full of regressions and its becoming a piece of trash.

            thanks microsoft. thanks SJWs. Thanks hipsters like poettering for turning linux into a microsoft/apple clone.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Weasel View Post
              Obviously, that's how I found out it was systemd holding it. Duh. It was months ago (as I mentioned) so I don't know the specifics, if I do it again I'll copy paste it.

              I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said. I did not want to even touch systemd or interact with it, but as I said, it keeps getting in my way. In this case I just wanted to install some compilation components so I can test compile some stuff on latest Arch iso. Nothing really special. The package installation procedure gave me that conflict with systemd-libs and libsystemd so obviously it already got in my way. And then I opted to continue removing it because it was getting on my nerves and of course half the whole thing was bricked but not like I didn't mention this already.

              To be specific: I had to remove it else I wouldn't have been able to install the damn packages I needed for compilation.

              The point is I just want that piece of shit to stay away and stop getting in my fucking way, but it won't, it's always a problem with systemd whenever I try something in an Arch VM. Locking /usr, packaging problem or whatever, it's always systemd, even if not directly its fault, clearly it's a pain in the ass for packagers since they messed up here. Can't be a coincidence.
              AKA I don't know what I was doing, so I just fumbled along anyway - so it must be someone elses fault

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              • Originally posted by jacob View Post
                And the relevance of that to the discussion about Devuan and systemd is.... ?
                The relevance is we can't judge just because some claims... Anyway I cheer this guys eventually they were able to achieve a goal and making Debian available with sysvinit and openrc, at this point they could even dismiss sysvint, it has made its time. I prefer stick with Debian even with systemd, Devuan is not a community and never will be, it would be nice if some effort made by them may come back to Debian but I don't see much opportunity.
                by the way, as Red Hat is already replacing pulseaudio with pipewire, systemd will do the same end soon or later. It is just a matter of patience.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tildearrow View Post
                  More like "tablet-focused", but otherwise, very true. However, XFCE still uses GTK+2, so no official HiDPI support.
                  Many parts of the latest Xfce desktop use GTK3, just set the custom dpi to 192 and choose a Hidpi theme in settings, and voila, Xfce works with a 4K monitor. You can not even find those settings in the gnome3 desktop and the default desktop font is unreadable.

                  Originally posted by tildearrow View Post
                  Bloatware? I doubt it is. But the protocol *is* incomplete, which makes you think like this.
                  Almost every Xorg package has dependencies for wayland packages, so wayland protocol software is bloatware when using the X windowing system.

                  Originally posted by tildearrow View Post
                  Is somewhat true
                  it is a technical fact.

                  Originally posted by tildearrow View Post
                  This does not make any sense...
                  it is a technical fact.


                  Originally posted by tildearrow View Post
                  Adds no value? It adds value as it is capable of restarting a crashed service (unlike sysvinit which only gets the system up but doesn't care)
                  So systemd is hiding things when restarting crashed services so that user will not notice bugs. Typical redhat and Microsoft bad software design.
                  Last edited by debianxfce; 03-02-2019, 03:28 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by debianxfce View Post
                    So systemd is hiding things when restarting crashed services so that user will not notice bugs. Typical redhat and Microsoft bad software design.
                    Ok. It's become painstakingly obvious that you're just a troll who doesn't know what they're talking about, let alone anything about Linux.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by jacob View Post
                      And the relevance of that to the discussion about Devuan and systemd is.... ?
                      But there are two issues here. The mockery that Devuan attracts and that its developers and users seem to resent so much is really their own fault.
                      Wanna expand on that latter claim? I agree with the former, actually? But, "they are at fault of being mocked.."? What the FUCK? This whole thread has been pro-systemd-people mocking the "opposition". Since beginning.

                      I looked at next thread about systemd and it had none of the aggressive attitude by anti-systemd people. In fact, barely saw any such posts. https://www.phoronix.com/forums/foru...ed-boot-loader
                      So, who is "guilty" in what? You'd go literally religiously nuts about piece of software crawling over into thread not about your Life's Love and start bashing because some people prefer living without dealing with it.

                      Post #2 (promotion, it's great, you don't know what you are missing out of. Okay, it's pretty decent text still)
                      Posted by microcode
                      You can use whatever init system you want, I installed systemd on Debian before they even considered making it their standard. systemd is great, you don't know what you're missing if you haven't given it a fair shake. The sell to Debian maintainers is obvious, as well: I was able to integrate systemd on my old Debian systems straight from the upstream repository, and almost all the units were already written.
                      Post #4 (passive-aggressive attack, already)
                      Posted by FireBurn
                      At first I didn't think anyone would be going to the devuaN conference, then I realised it was being held in Amsterdam... so there will probably be people there... in body if not mind
                      Post #6
                      Posted by Terrablit (not-so-subtle insulting)
                      Other classes of note at the conference:
                      • "How to Prevent Critical Thinking and Progress Using the Unix Philosophy"
                      • "Butter Churns and You"
                      • "How to Identify Witches and Redhat Developers"
                      • "Bloodletting and Leeches"
                      And it went downhill from there..

                      Grow the fuck up people.

                      Comment

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