ZFS On Linux Runs Into A Snag With Linux 5.0

[deusexmachina]

Why don't we have an 'offshore linux' that just ignores all of these IP threat and does what is best for its own code base?

[Bubbles_by_day]

Honestly casual users dont need zfs at all. Its planned and developed with strictly enterprise use in mind....and cause brilliant executed scalability zfs fits in home environment too ,people begun think of it like regular , PC , filesystem. Its isn't.

What are your bases for these specific assertions? I'd love to have my mind changed with some verifiable, falsifiable references.

I mean, those are obviously statements of opinion, inexpertly stated in such absolute terms as to be meaningless, but I'm giving benefit of doubt by reading it with less pointlessly and unsupportable authoritative phrasing, and am genuinely curious about how you came to such opinions. Not interested in more opinion to back up opinion, but if you are aware of some reasonably objective references, that you can justify the time to locate and share, I'd be really happy to read them and have my own opinions changed. After all, my opinions are also only based on personal experience and second-and-third-hand anecdote, and being keenly aware of that, I'm willing to do an about-face on my own beliefs with more objective evidence.

[Bubbles_by_day]

@Bubbles_by_day
I have just red that article "After Years of Abusive E-mails, the Creator of Linux Steps Aside"

It was kind of funny reading it. Linus is definitively not the most polite person in the world.

Well, I definitively liked when he showed middle finger to Nvidia. Perhaps sometimes people have to be rude... to get their point, to get the attention.
Corporations can certainly do much more damage than individual people. No matter how politely they put it through their PR outlets.

Would the world be so much better if kernel devs were more civil? Probably no. Perhaps it would be a little better.

All valid opinions. I disagree. Except for...

Ok, I think you have the right to demand more civility from the kernel dev team. I think it doesn't matter much. It doesn't matter to me. But, I still think that the kernel team has every right to drop ZFS from kernel.

...which I mostly agree with. I have the right to "demand" more civility. (Which I never did but I agree I have the right to.)

And the kernel team has every right to drop ZFS. Which I also agree with. But was not remotely the point. I'm not sure how this went so far off the rails to talk about "rights" and the First Amendment.

My only point was that 1) for a member of the kernel team to dismiss ZFS so broadly and generally, as a concern for what to drop, would be a mistake. My argument is that it hurts them, and general acceptance of Linux more broadly, not me personally. No one has to agree, it's an opinion, and not really provable one way or another unless we had access to a parallel universe where the only thing different was at least silence on the issue. And 2) about general civility, which would be pointless to relitigate.

It's relevant to my point, that this isn't a knee-jerk personal response about ZFS. In fact I don't give two s**ts that they broke support for encryption, because I don't use ZFS encryption either personally or in my job. Furthermore I'm actually kind of glad they did, because I think it might drive ZoL to work harder at being more native for Linux implementation. While I like that there's close coordination of open ZFS so that a volume works on multiple OSes, I believe that balance is currently too far on the side of Solaris-specific metaphors like memory management, that have to be shimmed and jerry-rigged around. Dropping support for the stuff that ZFS relies on for encryption, I think is stroke of personally beneficial luck. It should help provide more motivation for what I selfishly want to see, in a way that doesn't impact me personally.

But obviously I've found enough to animate me to write this much about it. (But for many, including me, writing many words is easy. Editing it down is really hard. So volume of words is, somewhat paradoxically, inversely proportional to how much I personally care. More like a bell curve, with amount of caring on the Y axis and word count on the X.)

So with the ZFS side of the argument actually working in my own self-interest, my objection--and word of advice if anyone on the kernel dev team cared, which they clearly don't--is over the kernel team appearing hostile to ZFS (if even just from one visible guy), and overall abusiveness of the team. It's one thing to be direct, honest, and anti-politically correct. But being belligerent assholes is completely different. With a nation on the brink of civil war and 8 billion people on the planet, that's arguably not a great idea.

Also, women are increasingly running men out of high-paying technical and leadership positions (based on long-term projections such as college admission and graduation rates). Highly technical fields are one of the last bastions of male dominance, and that ain't going to last for long. It's no longer even white and/or native-born males dominating it. The US is not graduating enough males (let alone "Men") in STEM fields. (Which I say with some authority since that's literally what my company focuses on doing.) That's why we're seeing male greencard holders dominate highly technical paid positions. Which I'm personally fine with, that's just the expected consequence to our (general) culture of laziness, worship of stupidity and triviality, and hero/celebrity worship that we seem to be so good at collectively promoting. Personally, I go out of my way to be professional and courteous to greencard holders, to women in STEM fields, and will do so with AI as we get closer to the singularity. Because those are all going to be my boss, in turn, someday, certainly the first two. (You can't get any higher than my "title", at least in a comparatively small sea. But my days of being a silverback are rapidly approaching an end, and even in primate cultures, the leaders that last orders of magnitude longer than others, are the leaders that have the confidence and strength to be kind, courteous, even suck up to their constituents, and avoid being abusive for no reason. Asshole leaders are displaced breathtakingly quickly. The odds are overwhelming that I'm not going to be a billionaire, regardless of how hard or ruthlessly I work towards it. I'll only be dropping successively down the ladder, if I can't retire quickly enough. And odds are also pretty overwhelming that the same will be eventually said for everyone on this forum including yourself. So unless you [speaking generally] are on a solid, objectively demonstrable, non-delusional trajectory to be in the 1% of the 1% of the 1% in less than ten years, I'd get used to the idea of treating minorities and women with respect and decency, and avoid being a belligerent asshole--independent of whether or not you think that being a decent human being is disdainful "political correctness", out of basic self-preservation. Kernel devs can get away with being belligerent asshats now. It won't always be the case. And they know it, hence the updated codes of conduct.)

But hey, that's just my opinion.

[Dedobot]

Honestly casual users dont need zfs at all. Its planned and developed with strictly enterprise use in mind....and cause brilliant executed scalability zfs fits in home environment too ,people begun think of it like regular , PC , filesystem. Its isn't.

[aht0]

You didn't read that article, did you? There are some facts in there.

Their declining interest in the field happened much later than the appearance of computers, so it can't be correlated to biology unless we changed that much as a race in a single generation. The explanation is a cultural, not biological one.

Article itself would be considered plain chauvinist, if it was covering 'males role' in IT in identical manner. And straight racist if it happened to have a word 'white' ahead of 'males'. So it could be classified as 'ideologically motivated', 'pushing feminist agenda' or whatever. These accusations and analogues can and do flow both ways, you know. Usually it's being ignored because 'oppressed' groupings are more equal (quoting Lenin) than 'oppressors'. What's allowed for one is not allowed for another but the point remains same when you want to be scrupulously equal.

If somebody did not perceive the necessity of the article from his ideological POV, it would not be present. Such article not existing would actually convince me MORE that females have or have had an equal role.

Cultural. What single culture, pray tell? U.S where IT was born, is by definition multi-cultural, where women have slightly different roles in different ethnic groupings. Lets talk about amish women's role in IT?

Fact: Every second engineer or tech is not female. Not even every 3rd.

I could see certain kind of women getting interested in purely mathematical aspects of IT, before it translated into technology but once the conversion from theory practice happened, no more. They are as rare as female Marines. Exist but as fairly rare exceptions, just confirming the rule.

[aht0]

That is true only if assuming that most casual users don't need additional capacity HDDs can offer. And I would estimate quite the opposite: that there will always be a non-negligible amount of users who value high capacity solution or hybrid (SSD+HDD solution).

To make your prediction false, it is only sufficient that some amount of HDDs get sold, like if HDDs make only 5% of the market, your prediction is false. I say that's unlikely, at least in the next 10 years.

Nah, only some people predict that, most don't. At least not in the next 10 years. If everyone predicted that, than Western Digital would immediately abandon its HDD business. But that's not happening.

So there exist a different prediction that is backed by a lot of money. That makes your prediction not certain.

SSD's have already eaten HDD's out from a huge chunk of a market. You can no longer see < 500GB HDDs on market, it's all SSD's now. Pattern is only going to continue. Soon you can no longer find new 500GB-1TB HDD's from market, later-on 1TB-2TB HDDs. Might take 5 years, might take ten, eventually HDD becomes history, except for pure archival. Exactly like punch cards, cassettes, tapes etc were replaced by better performing, faster and convenient-to-use tech.

How much 'capacity' casual user needs? And I don't mean torrent pirates but really, casual users.. Around 1Tb is plenty. So, it's not that far into future.

[GrayShade]

If women were equally tech-savvy, logically about 50% of devs, engineers, techs should be women. Are they? So, what's causing the 'abnormal' difference, if not biological hardwiring?

Insta-labeling me an 'asshole' makes you what? A saint? I already know you are demagogue because of linking Wikipedia article as some sort of a 'proof'. I never claimed they haven't affected IT. I claimed they have far less interest in technology and engineering. Which is, amply proven by the simple fact that every second engineer, programmer or computer technician is NOT woman. Regardless of your ideology, facts remain facts.

You didn't read that article, did you? There are some facts in there.

Their declining interest in the field happened much later than the appearance of computers, so it can't be correlated to biology unless we changed that much as a race in a single generation. The explanation is a cultural, not biological one.

[aht0]

Oh, no, no. I dislike "political correctness", affirmative action and positive discrimination as much as the next (Caucasian) guy. But you're wrong. The only reason that bias exists is the fact that assholes like you exist. If I was a woman, I'd probably hate to deal daily with this crap from people like you.

Here is a lesson in the history of computing for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_computing.

If women were equally tech-savvy, logically about 50% of devs, engineers, techs should be women. Are they? So, what's causing the 'abnormal' difference, if not biological hardwiring?

Insta-labeling me an 'asshole' makes you what? A saint? I already know you are demagogue because of linking Wikipedia article as some sort of a 'proof'. I never claimed they haven't affected IT. I claimed they have far less interest in technology and engineering. Which is, amply proven by the simple fact that every second engineer, programmer or computer technician is NOT woman. Regardless of your ideology, facts remain facts.

[GrayShade]

It's only 'picking' when you are citing it with a malicious fore-thought. If you don't care either way from neither group, it becomes just 'describing their average behavior-patterns'.

It's statistically proven both described groupings have way less interest in technology and engineering, compared to heterosexual males. It also reflects in amount of female or gay engineers. Yeah, such exist but they are few. We could claim 'different biological hard-wiring', which makes sense considering evolution.
You know, political correctness has been pushed way too far, when you cannot even speak of simple truths, without being afraid of looking like 'misogynistic asshole'.

Is God racist because snow is white?

Oh, no, no. I dislike "political correctness", affirmative action and positive discrimination as much as the next (Caucasian) guy. But you're wrong. The only reason that bias exists is the fact that assholes like you exist. If I was a woman, I'd probably hate to deal daily with this crap from people like you.

Here is a lesson in the history of computing for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_computing.

[aht0]

And that's a good way to put it (and I agree). But there's no point in picking on women or other social categories. You're only showing how ZFS users are misogynistic assholes, or whatever.

It's only 'picking' when you are citing it with a malicious fore-thought. If you don't care either way from neither group, it becomes just 'describing their average behavior-patterns'.

It's statistically proven both described groupings have way less interest in technology and engineering, compared to heterosexual males. It also reflects in amount of female or gay engineers. Yeah, such exist but they are few. We could claim 'different biological hard-wiring', which makes sense considering evolution.
You know, political correctness has been pushed way too far, when you cannot even speak of simple truths, without being afraid of looking like 'misogynistic asshole'.

Is God racist because snow is white?