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ZFS On Linux Runs Into A Snag With Linux 5.0

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  • SystemCrasher
    replied
    Originally posted by DrYak View Post
    Actually, ZFS *is* deployed on some Linux HPCs I know of.
    I can remember it has been used by something like LLNL or so. However these are some very specialized use cases, they could afford customized distros, plenty of staff to maintain all that, a very specific approach to managing configurations, uncommon HW setup and so on. I do not think I need or want something like this. Btrfs managed to fit my existing use cases with minimal changes and efforts - and I really like when things work this way. ZFS isn't like this. Look, aht0 already offered me idea to replace my laptop. Sure, I'm so excited about solutions like this...

    I do think billion of facebooks users still gives better overall testing coverage vs what few HPC installations could ever afford.

    As for android and java... hum, well, gamedevs aren't big fans of java for some reason. So there is NDK. Though it odd kind of Linux, sure.
    Last edited by SystemCrasher; 01-17-2019, 07:01 AM.

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  • SystemCrasher
    replied
    Originally posted by aht0 View Post
    (1)First of all, get yourself decent laptop
    Cool, so I'm supposed to change laptop and pay quite some money for.... what exactly? Any measurable gains worth of all these tantrums, money spendings, OS reinstall, etc? For me laptop isn't center of the universe, just one of machines I use. I'm not okay when some tech throws such a bizarre demands on my head like that.

    (2) Ehm, you really-really think ZFS is limited here? zfs set copies=2 dataset OR use 2 mirrored ZFS partitions on a single drive OR combine the two. Or increase the number of copies. OR do everything mentioned and have absurd amount of copies.
    Yes, I do think failure to support busload of existing configurations, including those I do care of, is a limitation. Furthermore, such replies of ZFS sealots is what makes me not really fond of this thing. Look, I like btrfs because it proven to be convenient, does not throws unreasonable demands on my head, and takes existing real-world configurations into account. Somehow I think things should happen this way.

    BTRfs is actually more vulnerable of the two, because it's using crc32c hash trees and makes AFAIK only 2 copies of metadata.
    I do not seek for super-solutions to all humankind problems. While CRC32 surely not perfect and just 2 copies could be a problem if one needs ULTIMATE reliability, it surely not a case on laptop. At the end of day, keeping dozen of copies of metadata on laptop is dumb thing to do for many other reasons. Look, just some funny DC-DC failure inside - and all your dozen of copies of metadata are TOAST. As well as most of electronic components around. Same crap if you just spill water (coffee, tea, whatever). And these failure modes are more likely than getting unreadable metadata on exactly same offsets or getting through CRC32 - both imply I neglected storage failures for a while and if I've been ignorant that badly, I would hardly use any filesystem reasonably anyway. Especially ZFS throwing such a weird demands on my head and making inconvenient assumptions.

    ZFS uses Merkle hash trees and spreads it's metadata around. When you go fully paranoiac you can configure it to be resistant to hundreds of bad sectors. Your drive would probably die long before you get to worry about it, and when your drive suddenly tucks it's tail under it's head and says "good night", no file system can help you.
    Except that it just does not works on single-drive configuration out of the box by easy means. And if it comes to complicated means - damn I would be easier just unrolling OS template and backups should drive fail that badly and need total replacement or something like this. And no, I'm not going to turn my laptop into data warehouse just to keep zfs happy.

    Anyway, bullshit again. I've used ZFS on Asus eeePC netbook, turning off fancy features and I am using ZFS on 2-drive mirror in my current Dell laptop.
    I would agree, its bullshit to start your message with demand to buy "decent laptop" and then mumble something about EEE. Hilarious.

    And in my i7 gaming PC. And it does not have issues of space congestion or fragmentation.
    Uhm yea, except one little problem: CoW inherently implies fragments. Furthermore, VM CoW disk vs FS CoW, DBs, just DLing some torrents and so on may not play well all together. And somehow I prefer technical solution over loud marketing BS. So btrfs got it. Ranging from deduplication/thin provisioning that does not hogs resources (e.g. reflinks) to defrag should mentioned assumption fail to work. Someting ZFS wasn't able to afford.

    Sure, if you can't access your filesystem at all, like topic implies, it could be stable condition, but I think there is some catch.
    Last edited by SystemCrasher; 01-17-2019, 06:55 AM.

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  • DrYak
    replied
    Originally posted by aht0 View Post
    Only using certain ZFS functionality makes it memory hungry. Generally whine about ZFS ram requirements is just FUD. For dead simple large file storage ram requirements are minuscule, you can get by using 768Mb. Seriously.
    ...which is more RAM that the total available on the Raspberry Pi 1 B+ rev 1.2 that was happily serving files from BTRFS as my tiny home server (until I upgraded to a 3 B+ a couple of months ago).

    Originally posted by pgoetz View Post
    If HBA, yes, you can use md, but this is inadequate for enterprise or even work group scale issues where data integrity is absolutely critical. mdadm will happily report that a RAID 5/6 is "healthy" when even a short smartctl test indicates disk errors. Been there, done that, and was barely able to recover the data from the RAID before replacing the (RAID-certified) disks that had developed unreadable sectors.
    This is why you run also periodic SMART test (using smartd), more frequently short test, less frequently long test (e.g.: nightly, and weekly/monthly). So you can spot anomalies before a hard disk dies.
    Than you can safely use a md RAID6 layer above (which still gives you redundancy while you replace a dead drive)
    Ideally a checksuming file system yet above with also weekly or monthls tests. (BTRFS, for the anti-ZFS trolling factor :-D )

    At workgroup scale, that is enough.

    Originally posted by pal666 View Post
    well, linux is the os for which most apps are developed (lookup android)
    Well, to nitpick : yes, Linux is the kernel currently running most written application, but you'll have to conceed that the Android "I can't believe it's not Java(tm)!" userspace hardly looks like GNU userland (neither like the busybox userland running on the router which all of the above use to get network access).

    Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
    Like the BSD kernel that Sony uses with their Playstation products? Sony is only the #1 in the world when it comes to game consoles and they use a non-gpl open source kernel.
    And Apple also uses a BSD server above ther mach microkernel as part of their Mac OS X and iOS, so again some extra BSD precense.

    But still, to get network access all of them are going to be plugged into a router that runs Linux+Busybox
    (not to speak that if the play station is plugged into a recent TV, the "smart" functionnality is most likely to be provided by a Linux kernel too)

    So even in a world composed exclusively of Sony PS4s and Apple Macs, they still would be outnumbered by the pieces of hardware running Linux.

    Originally posted by aht0 View Post
    Server space, excepting web servers (intranet), is dominated by Windows servers (~60%+ - I am extrapolating it from analytical data applying to Netherlands, which is your average free democratic country, "as good as any other"),
    Depends on your field of work. Research, Academics are stronly dominated by Linux, and they are the one having extremely large clusters.
    Cloud is mostly linux too (Except for a few non conformist running BSD VMs out of spite, and a couple of instance on Azure).

    So if you count on a per-machine (rather than per-business) basis, non-Linux servers are basically a joke.

    A bad joke.

    Originally posted by aht0 View Post
    smart phone business dominated by Android.. will see if Google's Fuchsia would eat it out of the market or not in the future..
    Given all the knowhow embed chipset/boards/phones manufacturer have invested in making drivers for Linux kernels, it's going to be an uphill battle to persuade them to switch to making chipsets and drivers for a different OS.
    With all its warchest, Microsoft wasn't that much successful at making them provide Windows Mobile powered hardware.

    Originally posted by pgoetz View Post
    and are using this in a professional situation? I'd be happy to switch to Btrfs, but can't find any storage admin willing to endorse such a thing. Everyone (but you) views Btrfs as too unstable for serious production use
    *I* am using BTRFS also in professional situations, though on slightly beefier configuration than the above mentionned raspberry pis.

    BTRFS is stable, RAID56 is about the only optional feature that isn't yet. As long as you don't rely on it (use RAD0, 1, dup, etc. or stack it above md) you're safe to go.

    Originally posted by SystemCrasher View Post
    Btrfs also got very decent tesing coverage when Facebook deployed it on their servers. Sure, not all features, just subset of these. I strongly doubt ZoL gets anyhow comparable testing coverage at all.
    Actually, ZFS *is* deployed on some Linux HPCs I know of.

    Originally posted by itoffshore View Post
    is better suited to running vm images than BTRFS.
    ...unless you turn off COW on the virtual disk file. Then it's as much suited as ext4, or anything else.

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  • dschwartz783
    replied
    Originally posted by k1e0x View Post

    Speculation. The creators of ZFS are human beings like Matt Ahrens who clearly does want it to run on Linux.. but.. if Linux kernel dev's don't want it.. I'm sure FreeBSD will have no problem stealing Linux's market share with it.
    This is part of why I moved to FreeBSD in the first place. FreeBSD's kernel team isn't led by a dude who really doesn't give two hoots about anyone but himself, or a culture which he created in his likeness. The FreeBSD team tends to be pretty open to working with just about anyone to port software to their platform. They're really a great bunch. On top of that, FreeBSD is far better designed from the ground up, and puts a lot more power in the hands of the administrator.

    On top of that (and here's a major benefit), ZFS is a first-class citizen. ZoL will probably always have to chase Linus and his band of zombies around as they make willy nilly changes to the kernel API, and exported symbols. ZFS on FreeBSD will always be there.

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  • GrayShade
    replied
    Originally posted by itoffshore View Post
    Use the right tools for each use case
    But my hammer is the perfect tool!

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  • itoffshore
    replied
    ZFS mirrors (0.8.0+) with native encryption runs very well with linux-hardened & is better suited to running vm images than BTRFS.

    BTRFS on LUKS makes a great root filesystem

    Use the right tools for each use case

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  • aht0
    replied
    Originally posted by SystemCrasher View Post
    Disks are cheap, blah-doh. (1)But, say my laptop just lacks space to add yet another drive, not to mention power consumption and weight. (2)Somehow btrfs can live with just one drive - storing metadata (or even data, if desired) using DUP storage scheme. That is, written twice to same disk. Somehow it helps vs occasional bad sector or other "small-scale" upsets like this, avoiding massive damage in this case.

    (3)On other hand ZFS implies high-profile enterprise HW setup and wouldn't do reasonably if it somthing else than that. Btrfs also got very decent tesing coverage when Facebook deployed it on their servers. Sure, not all features, just subset of these. I strongly doubt ZoL gets anyhow comparable testing coverage at all.

    p.s. and if someone is not happy with Linux licensing, okay, nobody forces you to use Linux, isn't it?
    (1)First of all, get yourself decent laptop. Another M2 slot and drive means just marginal increase in weight or power usage. Some models even have 4 of these slots (MSI GT80). I am not telling you that you have to buy that particular machine, just that machines with optional multiple drives do exist. Lots of choices if it comes to just 1-2 extra M2 slots.
    At the moment you bring forth argument "I was stupid to buy single drive laptop and I am smart to use btrfs because it would compensate my stupidity".

    (2) Ehm, you really-really think ZFS is limited here? zfs set copies=2 dataset OR use 2 mirrored ZFS partitions on a single drive OR combine the two. Or increase the number of copies. OR do everything mentioned and have absurd amount of copies.

    BTRfs is actually more vulnerable of the two, because it's using crc32c hash trees and makes AFAIK only 2 copies of metadata. ZFS uses Merkle hash trees and spreads it's metadata around. When you go fully paranoiac you can configure it to be resistant to hundreds of bad sectors. Your drive would probably die long before you get to worry about it, and when your drive suddenly tucks it's tail under it's head and says "good night", no file system can help you.

    (3) You claim that ZFS implies "high-profile enterprise HW setup and wouldn't do reasonably it it was 'somthing' else than that" And then bring us example of btrfs enterprise usage? What was the flippin' point of your previous sentence then?. Anyway, bullshit again. I've used ZFS on Asus eeePC netbook, turning off fancy features and I am using ZFS on 2-drive mirror in my current Dell laptop. And in my i7 gaming PC. And it does not have issues of space congestion or fragmentation.

    I got a laugh looking at https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index....trfs_stable.3F
    Is btrfs stable?
    Short answer: Maybe.
    Last edited by aht0; 01-14-2019, 04:49 AM.

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  • WorBlux
    replied
    Originally posted by AndrewDB View Post

    That was a very interesting comment, and I apologize for editing it. Just want to comment on two things.
    1) Nobody is really at fault here, it just so happens that the ZFS kernel driver code for x86 and x86_64 was using the decades old x87 FPU and so required access to the FPU registers directly. It's a software development accident. Things like that happen all the time. Unfortunately people on the LKML tend to get a little bit nervous quite often.

    2) Since ZOL also compiles for the arm, aarch64, ppc64 and ppc architectures, there is probably a solution or workaround that does not involve accessing the x87 registers directly. So yes, in the end the burden of fixing this will be on ZOL developers, but there is probably a simple solution, and the ZOL code will only improve from not messing with the (particularly finicky) x87 registers directly. So in the end ZFS on Linux users will benefit from this.
    1. No it was accessing some SIMD instructions, which for some reason Intel put behind the same initialization interface/registers, to accelerate checksum calculations.

    2. Likely with a performance penalty or having to go to GPL earmarked crypto interfaces.

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  • SystemCrasher
    replied
    Originally posted by pgoetz View Post
    In particular, disks are cheap, I never put anything, no matter how trivial, on a single disk without redundancy any more. The fact that you're talking about this raises questions. I guess maybe you're in Burundi, working with a budget of $2, or something?
    Disks are cheap, blah-doh. But, say my laptop just lacks space to add yet another drive, not to mention power consumption and weight. Somehow btrfs can live with just one drive - storing metadata (or even data, if desired) using DUP storage scheme. That is, written twice to same disk. Somehow it helps vs occasional bad sector or other "small-scale" upsets like this, avoiding massive damage in this case.

    On other hand ZFS implies high-profile enterprise HW setup and wouldn't do reasonably if it somthing else than that. Btrfs also got very decent tesing coverage when Facebook deployed it on their servers. Sure, not all features, just subset of these. I strongly doubt ZoL gets anyhow comparable testing coverage at all.

    p.s. and if someone is not happy with Linux licensing, okay, nobody forces you to use Linux, isn't it?
    Last edited by SystemCrasher; 01-13-2019, 02:47 PM.

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  • SystemCrasher
    replied
    Originally posted by pdffs View Post
    It's a shame that BTRFS turned out to be be such a steaming pile of crap
    Let's disagree on such a bold but totally unbacked statement. Works for me and NOT plagued by troubles like out of tree modules do.

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