Originally posted by SystemCrasher
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ZFS On Linux Runs Into A Snag With Linux 5.0
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Originally posted by DrYak View PostActually, ZFS *is* deployed on some Linux HPCs I know of.
I do think billion of facebooks users still gives better overall testing coverage vs what few HPC installations could ever afford.
As for android and java... hum, well, gamedevs aren't big fans of java for some reason. So there is NDK. Though it odd kind of Linux, sure.Last edited by SystemCrasher; 17 January 2019, 07:01 AM.
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Originally posted by aht0 View Post(1)First of all, get yourself decent laptop
(2) Ehm, you really-really think ZFS is limited here? zfs set copies=2 dataset OR use 2 mirrored ZFS partitions on a single drive OR combine the two. Or increase the number of copies. OR do everything mentioned and have absurd amount of copies.
BTRfs is actually more vulnerable of the two, because it's using crc32c hash trees and makes AFAIK only 2 copies of metadata.
ZFS uses Merkle hash trees and spreads it's metadata around. When you go fully paranoiac you can configure it to be resistant to hundreds of bad sectors. Your drive would probably die long before you get to worry about it, and when your drive suddenly tucks it's tail under it's head and says "good night", no file system can help you.
Anyway, bullshit again. I've used ZFS on Asus eeePC netbook, turning off fancy features and I am using ZFS on 2-drive mirror in my current Dell laptop.
And in my i7 gaming PC. And it does not have issues of space congestion or fragmentation.
I got a laugh looking at https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index....trfs_stable.3FLast edited by SystemCrasher; 17 January 2019, 06:55 AM.
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Originally posted by aht0 View PostOnly using certain ZFS functionality makes it memory hungry. Generally whine about ZFS ram requirements is just FUD. For dead simple large file storage ram requirements are minuscule, you can get by using 768Mb. Seriously.
Originally posted by pgoetz View PostIf HBA, yes, you can use md, but this is inadequate for enterprise or even work group scale issues where data integrity is absolutely critical. mdadm will happily report that a RAID 5/6 is "healthy" when even a short smartctl test indicates disk errors. Been there, done that, and was barely able to recover the data from the RAID before replacing the (RAID-certified) disks that had developed unreadable sectors.
Than you can safely use a md RAID6 layer above (which still gives you redundancy while you replace a dead drive)
Ideally a checksuming file system yet above with also weekly or monthls tests. (BTRFS, for the anti-ZFS trolling factor :-D )
At workgroup scale, that is enough.
Originally posted by pal666 View Postwell, linux is the os for which most apps are developed (lookup android)
Originally posted by skeevy420 View PostLike the BSD kernel that Sony uses with their Playstation products? Sony is only the #1 in the world when it comes to game consoles and they use a non-gpl open source kernel.
But still, to get network access all of them are going to be plugged into a router that runs Linux+Busybox
(not to speak that if the play station is plugged into a recent TV, the "smart" functionnality is most likely to be provided by a Linux kernel too)
So even in a world composed exclusively of Sony PS4s and Apple Macs, they still would be outnumbered by the pieces of hardware running Linux.
Originally posted by aht0 View PostServer space, excepting web servers (intranet), is dominated by Windows servers (~60%+ - I am extrapolating it from analytical data applying to Netherlands, which is your average free democratic country, "as good as any other"),
Cloud is mostly linux too (Except for a few non conformist running BSD VMs out of spite, and a couple of instance on Azure).
So if you count on a per-machine (rather than per-business) basis, non-Linux servers are basically a joke.
A bad joke.
Originally posted by aht0 View Postsmart phone business dominated by Android.. will see if Google's Fuchsia would eat it out of the market or not in the future..
With all its warchest, Microsoft wasn't that much successful at making them provide Windows Mobile powered hardware.
Originally posted by pgoetz View Postand are using this in a professional situation? I'd be happy to switch to Btrfs, but can't find any storage admin willing to endorse such a thing. Everyone (but you) views Btrfs as too unstable for serious production use
BTRFS is stable, RAID56 is about the only optional feature that isn't yet. As long as you don't rely on it (use RAD0, 1, dup, etc. or stack it above md) you're safe to go.
Originally posted by SystemCrasher View PostBtrfs also got very decent tesing coverage when Facebook deployed it on their servers. Sure, not all features, just subset of these. I strongly doubt ZoL gets anyhow comparable testing coverage at all.
Originally posted by itoffshore View Postis better suited to running vm images than BTRFS.
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Originally posted by k1e0x View Post
Speculation. The creators of ZFS are human beings like Matt Ahrens who clearly does want it to run on Linux.. but.. if Linux kernel dev's don't want it.. I'm sure FreeBSD will have no problem stealing Linux's market share with it.
On top of that (and here's a major benefit), ZFS is a first-class citizen. ZoL will probably always have to chase Linus and his band of zombies around as they make willy nilly changes to the kernel API, and exported symbols. ZFS on FreeBSD will always be there.
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ZFS mirrors (0.8.0+) with native encryption runs very well with linux-hardened & is better suited to running vm images than BTRFS.
BTRFS on LUKS makes a great root filesystem
Use the right tools for each use case
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Originally posted by SystemCrasher View PostDisks are cheap, blah-doh. (1)But, say my laptop just lacks space to add yet another drive, not to mention power consumption and weight. (2)Somehow btrfs can live with just one drive - storing metadata (or even data, if desired) using DUP storage scheme. That is, written twice to same disk. Somehow it helps vs occasional bad sector or other "small-scale" upsets like this, avoiding massive damage in this case.
(3)On other hand ZFS implies high-profile enterprise HW setup and wouldn't do reasonably if it somthing else than that. Btrfs also got very decent tesing coverage when Facebook deployed it on their servers. Sure, not all features, just subset of these. I strongly doubt ZoL gets anyhow comparable testing coverage at all.
p.s. and if someone is not happy with Linux licensing, okay, nobody forces you to use Linux, isn't it?
At the moment you bring forth argument "I was stupid to buy single drive laptop and I am smart to use btrfs because it would compensate my stupidity".
(2) Ehm, you really-really think ZFS is limited here? zfs set copies=2 dataset OR use 2 mirrored ZFS partitions on a single drive OR combine the two. Or increase the number of copies. OR do everything mentioned and have absurd amount of copies.
BTRfs is actually more vulnerable of the two, because it's using crc32c hash trees and makes AFAIK only 2 copies of metadata. ZFS uses Merkle hash trees and spreads it's metadata around. When you go fully paranoiac you can configure it to be resistant to hundreds of bad sectors. Your drive would probably die long before you get to worry about it, and when your drive suddenly tucks it's tail under it's head and says "good night", no file system can help you.
(3) You claim that ZFS implies "high-profile enterprise HW setup and wouldn't do reasonably it it was 'somthing' else than that" And then bring us example of btrfs enterprise usage? What was the flippin' point of your previous sentence then?. Anyway, bullshit again. I've used ZFS on Asus eeePC netbook, turning off fancy features and I am using ZFS on 2-drive mirror in my current Dell laptop. And in my i7 gaming PC. And it does not have issues of space congestion or fragmentation.
I got a laugh looking at https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index....trfs_stable.3F
Is btrfs stable?
Short answer: Maybe.Last edited by aht0; 14 January 2019, 04:49 AM.
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Originally posted by AndrewDB View Post
That was a very interesting comment, and I apologize for editing it. Just want to comment on two things.
1) Nobody is really at fault here, it just so happens that the ZFS kernel driver code for x86 and x86_64 was using the decades old x87 FPU and so required access to the FPU registers directly. It's a software development accident. Things like that happen all the time. Unfortunately people on the LKML tend to get a little bit nervous quite often.
2) Since ZOL also compiles for the arm, aarch64, ppc64 and ppc architectures, there is probably a solution or workaround that does not involve accessing the x87 registers directly. So yes, in the end the burden of fixing this will be on ZOL developers, but there is probably a simple solution, and the ZOL code will only improve from not messing with the (particularly finicky) x87 registers directly. So in the end ZFS on Linux users will benefit from this.
2. Likely with a performance penalty or having to go to GPL earmarked crypto interfaces.
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Originally posted by pgoetz View PostIn particular, disks are cheap, I never put anything, no matter how trivial, on a single disk without redundancy any more. The fact that you're talking about this raises questions. I guess maybe you're in Burundi, working with a budget of $2, or something?
On other hand ZFS implies high-profile enterprise HW setup and wouldn't do reasonably if it somthing else than that. Btrfs also got very decent tesing coverage when Facebook deployed it on their servers. Sure, not all features, just subset of these. I strongly doubt ZoL gets anyhow comparable testing coverage at all.
p.s. and if someone is not happy with Linux licensing, okay, nobody forces you to use Linux, isn't it?Last edited by SystemCrasher; 13 January 2019, 02:47 PM.
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