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ZFS On Linux Runs Into A Snag With Linux 5.0

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  • @Bubbles_by_day
    I have just red that article "After Years of Abusive E-mails, the Creator of Linux Steps Aside"

    It was kind of funny reading it. Linus is definitively not the most polite person in the world.

    Well, I definitively liked when he showed middle finger to Nvidia. Perhaps sometimes people have to be rude... to get their point, to get the attention.
    Corporations can certainly do much more damage than individual people. No matter how politely they put it through their PR outlets.

    Would the world be so much better if kernel devs were more civil? Probably no. Perhaps it would be a little better.

    Ok, I think you have the right to demand more civility from the kernel dev team. I think it doesn't matter much. It doesn't matter to me. But, I still think that the kernel team has every right to drop ZFS from kernel.

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    • Originally posted by xfcemint View Post

      Nah. To make a prediction which is acceptable as an argument in a discussion, you cant just say "oh, the sales of HDDs are falling, so they will soon be extinct". By that thinking, every line that starts falling down must continue to do so, by some unknown law of nature.

      Predicion involves having much more data, and predicions must in general be more robust.

      What you are doing is called speculation.



      Most technology improvements require intoducing additional complications. That's nothing new.

      The consensus predicion is that HDD capacity is going to increase further, and there are good reasons behind that predicion (like: plausible new technology is available).
      It's prediction based on past analogue patterns. You don't need lots of data for making it. When the 'new solution' is at least as easy to use, has noticeable advantages, it will eat out the 'old'. SSD's are WAY FASTER. SSD's can take tens of G's of abuse - drop mech drive from lap to the floor, it's most likely screwed, SSD's are more energy efficient etc. Mech drives lack currently any advantages over SSD's except for better price/capacity ratio - when dealing with large ones - and mech drives being technologically better fit for data archival. Thus I conclude that over time it's the only purpose left for mech drives.

      With more and more SSD's being produced, it's price-per-gigabyte is going to drop, until it's equal or cheaper to mech drives even at large capacities. Why would you buy mech drive when SSD has cheaper or equal price - for daily use? You don't. Not only you but large masses are going to follow the thought and so mech drives gradually disappear from daily use. End of logic chain and prediction.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by GrayShade View Post
        And that's a good way to put it (and I agree). But there's no point in picking on women or other social categories. You're only showing how ZFS users are misogynistic assholes, or whatever.
        It's only 'picking' when you are citing it with a malicious fore-thought. If you don't care either way from neither group, it becomes just 'describing their average behavior-patterns'.

        It's statistically proven both described groupings have way less interest in technology and engineering, compared to heterosexual males. It also reflects in amount of female or gay engineers. Yeah, such exist but they are few. We could claim 'different biological hard-wiring', which makes sense considering evolution.
        You know, political correctness has been pushed way too far, when you cannot even speak of simple truths, without being afraid of looking like 'misogynistic asshole'.

        Is God racist because snow is white?

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        • Originally posted by aht0 View Post
          It's only 'picking' when you are citing it with a malicious fore-thought. If you don't care either way from neither group, it becomes just 'describing their average behavior-patterns'.

          It's statistically proven both described groupings have way less interest in technology and engineering, compared to heterosexual males. It also reflects in amount of female or gay engineers. Yeah, such exist but they are few. We could claim 'different biological hard-wiring', which makes sense considering evolution.
          You know, political correctness has been pushed way too far, when you cannot even speak of simple truths, without being afraid of looking like 'misogynistic asshole'.

          Is God racist because snow is white?
          Oh, no, no. I dislike "political correctness", affirmative action and positive discrimination as much as the next (Caucasian) guy. But you're wrong. The only reason that bias exists is the fact that assholes like you exist. If I was a woman, I'd probably hate to deal daily with this crap from people like you.

          Here is a lesson in the history of computing for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_computing.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by GrayShade View Post
            Oh, no, no. I dislike "political correctness", affirmative action and positive discrimination as much as the next (Caucasian) guy. But you're wrong. The only reason that bias exists is the fact that assholes like you exist. If I was a woman, I'd probably hate to deal daily with this crap from people like you.

            Here is a lesson in the history of computing for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_computing.
            If women were equally tech-savvy, logically about 50% of devs, engineers, techs should be women. Are they? So, what's causing the 'abnormal' difference, if not biological hardwiring?

            Insta-labeling me an 'asshole' makes you what? A saint? I already know you are demagogue because of linking Wikipedia article as some sort of a 'proof'. I never claimed they haven't affected IT. I claimed they have far less interest in technology and engineering. Which is, amply proven by the simple fact that every second engineer, programmer or computer technician is NOT woman. Regardless of your ideology, facts remain facts.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by aht0 View Post

              If women were equally tech-savvy, logically about 50% of devs, engineers, techs should be women. Are they? So, what's causing the 'abnormal' difference, if not biological hardwiring?

              Insta-labeling me an 'asshole' makes you what? A saint? I already know you are demagogue because of linking Wikipedia article as some sort of a 'proof'. I never claimed they haven't affected IT. I claimed they have far less interest in technology and engineering. Which is, amply proven by the simple fact that every second engineer, programmer or computer technician is NOT woman. Regardless of your ideology, facts remain facts.
              You didn't read that article, did you? There are some facts in there.

              Their declining interest in the field happened much later than the appearance of computers, so it can't be correlated to biology unless we changed that much as a race in a single generation. The explanation is a cultural, not biological one.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by GrayShade View Post
                Their declining interest in the field happened much later than the appearance of computers, so it can't be correlated to biology unless we changed that much as a race in a single generation. The explanation is a cultural, not biological one.
                "Their declining interest in the field" - when were woman equally interested in the field? And in which countries?
                And even if you can find some evidence supporting your statement, how can you prove that it was not due to some unrelated cause?

                Anyway, I think this quickly gets too complex to argue, and really it is not my favorite topic.

                But in the interest of some higher good, I have a suggestion.
                Why don't you try viewing a very fine Norweigan documentary called "Hjernevask" (Brainwash). Who knows - maybe you'll enjoy it. English subtitles are available.
                I'm saying it because Norway is one of the top world countries in regards to gender equality.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by aht0 View Post
                  It's prediction based on past analogue patterns. You don't need lots of data for making it. When the 'new solution' is at least as easy to use, has noticeable advantages, it will eat out the 'old'. SSD's are WAY FASTER....
                  ...and mech drives being technologically better fit for data archival. Thus I conclude that over time it's the only purpose left for mech drives.
                  That is true only if assuming that most casual users don't need additional capacity HDDs can offer. And I would estimate quite the opposite: that there will always be a non-negligible amount of users who value high capacity solution or hybrid (SSD+HDD solution).

                  To make your prediction false, it is only sufficient that some amount of HDDs get sold, like if HDDs make only 5% of the market, your prediction is false. I say that's unlikely, at least in the next 10 years.

                  Originally posted by aht0 View Post
                  With more and more SSD's being produced, it's price-per-gigabyte is going to drop, until it's equal or cheaper to mech drives even at large capacities.
                  Nah, only some people predict that, most don't. At least not in the next 10 years. If everyone predicted that, than Western Digital would immediately abandon its HDD business. But that's not happening.

                  So there exist a different prediction that is backed by a lot of money. That makes your prediction not certain.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by xfcemint View Post
                    That is true only if assuming that most casual users don't need additional capacity HDDs can offer. And I would estimate quite the opposite: that there will always be a non-negligible amount of users who value high capacity solution or hybrid (SSD+HDD solution).

                    To make your prediction false, it is only sufficient that some amount of HDDs get sold, like if HDDs make only 5% of the market, your prediction is false. I say that's unlikely, at least in the next 10 years.

                    Nah, only some people predict that, most don't. At least not in the next 10 years. If everyone predicted that, than Western Digital would immediately abandon its HDD business. But that's not happening.

                    So there exist a different prediction that is backed by a lot of money. That makes your prediction not certain.
                    SSD's have already eaten HDD's out from a huge chunk of a market. You can no longer see < 500GB HDDs on market, it's all SSD's now. Pattern is only going to continue. Soon you can no longer find new 500GB-1TB HDD's from market, later-on 1TB-2TB HDDs. Might take 5 years, might take ten, eventually HDD becomes history, except for pure archival. Exactly like punch cards, cassettes, tapes etc were replaced by better performing, faster and convenient-to-use tech.

                    How much 'capacity' casual user needs? And I don't mean torrent pirates but really, casual users.. Around 1Tb is plenty. So, it's not that far into future.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by GrayShade View Post
                      You didn't read that article, did you? There are some facts in there.

                      Their declining interest in the field happened much later than the appearance of computers, so it can't be correlated to biology unless we changed that much as a race in a single generation. The explanation is a cultural, not biological one.
                      Article itself would be considered plain chauvinist, if it was covering 'males role' in IT in identical manner. And straight racist if it happened to have a word 'white' ahead of 'males'. So it could be classified as 'ideologically motivated', 'pushing feminist agenda' or whatever. These accusations and analogues can and do flow both ways, you know. Usually it's being ignored because 'oppressed' groupings are more equal (quoting Lenin) than 'oppressors'. What's allowed for one is not allowed for another but the point remains same when you want to be scrupulously equal.

                      If somebody did not perceive the necessity of the article from his ideological POV, it would not be present. Such article not existing would actually convince me MORE that females have or have had an equal role.

                      Cultural. What single culture, pray tell? U.S where IT was born, is by definition multi-cultural, where women have slightly different roles in different ethnic groupings. Lets talk about amish women's role in IT?

                      Fact: Every second engineer or tech is not female. Not even every 3rd.

                      I could see certain kind of women getting interested in purely mathematical aspects of IT, before it translated into technology but once the conversion from theory practice happened, no more. They are as rare as female Marines. Exist but as fairly rare exceptions, just confirming the rule.
                      Last edited by aht0; 05-21-2019, 03:16 AM.

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