Linux 4.19-rc4 Released As Linus Temporarily Steps Away From Kernel Maintainership

[nanonyme]

With respect, the debate is not about whether Linus is making overly-critical comments to individual new developers - if that has ever happened (I don't remember ever seeing it) it would be a real problem and there would not be much debate about it.

The issue here as I understand it is that Linus is speaking bluntly to his "inner circle" (the top level maintainers) on a public mailing list, and that other people reading the posts are being offended on the maintainer's behalf even if the maintainers are fine with it.

To be fair Linus has often seemed to criticize the ability (or lack thereof) of maintainers to screen not-there-yet code from entering pull requests.
It can feel pretty bad to the developer whose code was involved but ultimately they might just not be experienced enough to say when their code is good enough and rely on expertise of the maintainer.
The language Linus uses sometimes makes it sound like he's doing code review but in a vile way. I think he in reality assumes code review was already done and he's then handed over dung.

[89c51]

This is so idiotic. Codes of conduct and all that shit. "Oh he is offensive, vile he hurts my feelings" please leave the world and go somewhere remote and herd animals.

Torvalds -and the way he maintains/manages stuff- is key to the success of linux and why its a high quality project.

[coder]

So many fucking idiots who seem to think being decent to other people is a bad idea,

Leading by example, I see...

[coder]

There is a big difference between saying "I disagree with your idea" and saying "you suck and don't deserve to be here" but some people do hear the former and interpret it as the latter. I think most people would say that making sure you are polite and respectful when saying "I disagree with your idea" is expected from everyone

The approach I usually take is by first pointing out something I appreciate about their approach, or that at least shows I understand where they're coming from. Then, I explain why I disagree with it. I won't lie, though. If I have difficulty finding an upside to their approach, I'm likely to say that. But, sometimes this exercise reveals to them that I'm missing something about it, which could actually change my mind. We then have a chance to address the misunderstanding and I can reconsider.

As you say, if I already have a close working relationship with someone, I'll often skip the first part and cut straight to the point of disagreement.

[dungeon]

With respect, the debate is not about whether Linus is making insulting comments to individual new developers - if that has ever happened (I don't remember ever seeing it but it might have happened) it would be a problem and I don't think there would be much disagreement.

The issue here as I understand it is that Linus is speaking bluntly to his "inner circle" (the top level maintainers) on a public mailing list, and that other people reading the posts are being offended on the maintainer's behalf even if the maintainers are fine with it.

Blah, i don't see difference between these two . In both cases, when something is wrong Linus just behave like that is just his way to teach you something, and that is fine when he is right, but isn't when he isn't...

When he ending being right no one will complain, so if you are sure you are right you also have a right to start to be a bit angry. and people will just say ah OK you are right it was my wrong and that is considered to be OK The issue here is not that but because he behave like that by default on many problems so even when he ended up being wrong, so people think he does not need to come with anger every time

Same thing is considered OK if you are sure, especially for these who consistently repeat some mistakes. But, It is kind of nonsense to came by with that if you are not 100% sure so unsure, particulary when ending up to be wrong, isn't it? He likes to argue like that and i understand it as part of his temperament nature, but sometimes it is kind of just too much

[sverris]

I think, it is all mainly a matter of wording. If someone screwed somthing up, Linus must be VERY clear about it, BUT with the goal to encourage people to do it better next time. If Linus reacts too harsh AND does this even in public e-mails, it might scare good devs away - which, on top of that, might hurt the kernel. Personally, I grew up under circumstances where harsh words were nothing strange, so I do not mind or I even kind of enjoy the rants. But that is just MY perspective - and other people (as we know) may feel different about such things.

[coder]

In fact as both an employee and a manager I fought against these types of personalities for decades, no matter how brilliant they were, or thought they were.

Sadly, I fear both you (and they) might've have lost out, as a result. The way to deal with difficult types is to sell them on the benefits of a different way - not to play parent and slap them around with threats and sanctions. They might just regard you as unreasonable as you view them.

A more constructive approach is to get them to recognize the benefits of team work, and the positives of team members with whom they clash - not just focusing on the negatives. Show them alternatives for dealing with situations that produce a more positive result. If you can give them tools they lack, and positive experiences with employing them, you might just win them over instead of driving them away.

I once had a manager who would treat every disagreement between team members as a fight between children. He would frequently come down hardest on the one who was technically right (or had the stronger argument). While the day to day activities were more civilized, the team & product eventually suffered as some of the strongest contributors were marginalized and driven out, while mediocrity flourished, unchallenged.

[mcallegari]

I hope he doesn't come back with the politically correct idea of writing 5.0 in Java LOL

Seriously. What he achieved in 30 years is a matter of fact. If there was another person in his place, we probably wouldn't have such a high quality kernel, or the project would have died decades ago.
You can say everything you want about him but he did achieve things and gave the world one of the most precious gift in the software history.
Who contributes to the kernel code is aware of who he is and should be prepared for his reactions.

Think about it. The same story happened with Steve Jobs, and now that he's dead he's a hero. As a matter of fact he did things and changed the world, exactly like Torvalds.
Great things come at a price, and these people personality is the price. Are they justified for this ? No, I think they can do better, but still, they do things.

[Guest]

Everyone needs a break from time to time.

[geearf]

What happened recently that he got to say that? For decades he's been defending himself about that, saying it was his culture, it was for the best, blablabla...
I really wonder what made him change so much, and fear what's coming.
I hope that it's nothing bad, and that he will continue to be honest, just less rude.

I don't believe there is any issue with stating a fact, no matter the fact, quite the contrary, I'd hate to have to say things I don't believe to not upset people, but adding insults/rude words/yelling, that to me is unacceptable. Of course, I'd rather be in an airplane built by a rude but dedicated smart guy, than a gentleman but mediocre mechanic... so I'm all for keeping Linus either way

To a brutally honest gentleman!