Purism's FSP Reverse Engineering Effort Might Be Stalled

[onicsis]

Hooray for the waybackmachine https://web.archive.org/web/20180407...l-entry-point/

Even better, now is time to dump proprietary x86 to something else (RISC-V ) encumbered by closed source blobs.

[L_A_G]

Sadly this kind of outcome was pretty likely from the get-go. Intel put a lot of time and money into developing that stuff and when stuff is proprietary that tends to mean the company who made it doesn't want to share it with the world and will try to stop people from achieving it as a side effect of reverse-engineering trough the legal system even if they don't have a legal case. Litigation is notoriously expensive in the U.S and it's not just firmware, a lot of other software has a "I will not try to reverse-engineer this software" section in their EULA.

Most probably this should have been done in Russia or China where big american companies' legal reach isn't quite what it is in the west. ReactOS, had it been developed in Sweden would have had it's developers either sued to oblivion or jailed years ago by authorities acting on the orders of bought politicians.

[creative]

It's not exactly hard to know that AMD has a "secure coprocessor" when they post about that in their own press releases.

True.

I wonder sometimes that secure microcontrollers in processor's are used for deep AI learning. Full network stacks, tons of systems to use all over the planet. Could our very own PC's be a means to keep in development advanced AI technologies? Segments of it, apendages of an advanced AI network like a global neural silicon framework very eerie predictive systems and so on. Ok I am out past Pluto now, for everything else there is Earth.

[ssokolow]

Vishera didn't have the PSP. That's Ryzen only iirc

It's been around a lot longer than Ryzen... they've just been unable to settle on a consistent name for it and don't trumpet its presence on their website.

IIRC, they originally just called it a "TrustZone Core" and the most recent thing they're calling it is AMD-SP (Secure Processor).

The LibreBoot FAQ says "The Platform Security Processor (PSP) is built in on all Family 16h + systems (basically anything post-2013)" and, from what I remember, my own research agreed.

As much as I want to continue supporting AMD, I think my next CPU intended for gaming and emulation will be an Intel, because me_cleaner exists.

[starshipeleven]

I wonder sometimes that secure microcontrollers in processor's are used for deep AI learning. Full network stacks, tons of systems to use all over the planet. Could our very own PC's be a means to keep in development advanced AI technologies? Segments of it, apendages of an advanced AI network like a global neural silicon framework very eerie predictive systems and so on. Ok I am out past Pluto now, for everything else there is Earth.

Can I introduce you to a concept that us earthlings call "Occam razor"? http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/ph...ral/occam.html
If in doubt between two theories, choose the simpler one as it is the more likely to be true.

Having the ME/PSP processors be part of a neural network (AI) would be monumentally stupid. You want your nodes to communicate as fast as possible, or your system is s-l-o-o-o-o-o-w-w. Having node interconnect run at Internet speeds (hundreds of milliseconds to get from a node to the next), and also with Internet reliability (kinda crappy) would make this an exercise in futility.

[starshipeleven]

As much as I want to continue supporting AMD, I think my next CPU intended for gaming and emulation will be an Intel, because me_cleaner exists.

I think gaming and emulation aren't really sensitive things, you can probably do fine with whatever on a gaming rig. It's your main PC that has to be secure.

[ssokolow]

I think gaming and emulation aren't really sensitive things, you can probably do fine with whatever on a gaming rig. It's your main PC that has to be secure.

Yes... I'm just not sure I'll have the budget to make my main machine and my gaming PC separate machines. I don't currently.

(I'm still running the Athlon II X2 270 that I bought when my last motherboard had a RAM socket go bad. That was an Athlon 64 X2 5000+ that I bought in 2007.)

[madscientist159]

Everything with any notable processing power has secure microcontroller technologies, all by the way of which can be used by special interest.

Nope. Here's a counterexample:

https://raptorcs.com/TALOSII/

With source

https://git.raptorcs.com/git/

[creative]

Can I introduce you to a concept that us earthlings call "Occam razor"? http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/ph...ral/occam.html
If in doubt between two theories, choose the simpler one as it is the more likely to be true.

Having the ME/PSP processors be part of a neural network (AI) would be monumentally stupid. You want your nodes to communicate as fast as possible, or your system is s-l-o-o-o-o-o-w-w. Having node interconnect run at Internet speeds (hundreds of milliseconds to get from a node to the next), and also with Internet reliability (kinda crappy) would make this an exercise in futility.

Very good point. I still think they are used, and don't need high bandwith to operate/communicate if data is simple and abstractive. Abstractive processes are genius due to their extrapulative nature, no matter how slow the process is, it is still used especially in the human brain, which can be highly relevant to hyper-cognition or even low frequency attention. Sometimes slower is better, especially when a type of thinking network is being built, "pause" can allow space for better continuity instead of instantly commiting everything to a function just cause it can. Instead the abstractive process tries and checks it out, and commits it to memory for future reference in the case that a wedge/block/hinge/lever/wheel/scew/speed/brake/push/pull/stop/goback/vector/ray/light/dark/hot/cold/positive/negative/up/down/left/right/empty/full function can actually be used.

Of course I could be a complete idiot, but due to my own abstractive nature and mode of operation I think that the chances of that are ohhhh...basically zero, especially in this layer of reality we function or don't function in.

End modality, interest lost, commiting to memory for future reference. Attention and syntax slowly being pulled from enviroment, now exiting browser.

[onicsis]

From Raptor Computing Systems FAQ:

Q: Why POWER9? Why not just package a cheap ARM SoC or x86 processor on a libre-friendly mainboard?

A: As you may be aware, both of the main x86 manufacturers have decided to require non-free, unreplaceable, highly privileged firmware "black boxes" (blobs) in order for their CPUs to function. These blobs are cryptographically signed and verified by the CPU hardware; as such, there is no way to replace them or remove them. Because of their tight integration with basic system operation, even a complete mainboard redesign will not remove them. Worse, public hacks into this system management firmware have already been demonstrated on at least one occasion--and are unpatchable without full vendor cooperation. As a result, some developers have turned to ARM, only to find that ARM does not have the computing power required for many development tasks. ARM-based machines also tend to lack upgradability and expandability, and, unfortunately, ARM is going through its own gradual lockdown regarding higher-performance devices. POWER9 does not have any of these concerns, and brings a wide array of modern technologies to the table without requiring you to give up any of your freedom. When you look at the complete price of a comparable build-it-yourself x86 bundle--even though POWER9 has state-of-the-art technologies, like PCIe 4 and CAPI 2, that no x86 machine offers-- the Talos™ II bundles are similar in cost. Why lock yourself into the proprietary, insecure x86 ecosystem with hacks on the rise and GDPR-related data breach penalties on the horizon? Make the smart decision and invest in a truly open platform, even if it means relying on open-source applications -- your lower TCO and provable compliance will justify the initial investment.

Q: Wait, so even coreboot won't help me? Why haven't I heard about this?

A: The management firmware in question--the "Management Engine" (ME) on Intel and the "Platform Security Processor" (PSP) on AMD--is a somewhat poorly kept secret, but only a small percentage of users, executives, and organizations are aware of its existence, let alone the danger that the associated centralized control actually poses. Coreboot is unable to boot modern x86 without at least two blobs involved, one of which is mandatory per the hardware-enforced signature checks; while coreboot may be a step in the right direction, it is far from a fully auditable solution on x86. Unfortunately, this situation is permanent, given the current hardware available; it is one of the main reasons for our switch from x86 to OpenPOWER.

For shorrt it's not possible to boot a modern x86 CPU without binary blobs, or without reverse engineering them, which can attract legal consequences.