KWin Developer's Response To The GNOME CSD Initiative

[RelaxTrolls]

There is an interesting answer by a GNOME developer there, which make it sounds like they are open to discussion on DWD. As I see it, both sides have valid arguments; maybe we can put an end to these nonsense discussions about SSD versus CSD and instead put some energy into working towards a common goal? Well, I followed with a reply anyway. DWD would be great, I can see myself using them on KDE as well, but I am not ready to abandon the uniform look and feel the desktop currently has for it, and certainly appreciate the workload represented by trying to have a CSD app look native on every DE out there.

very diplomatic and a balanced view... i generally lean more towards CSD, it does seem more flexible than traditional SSD... but another issue and opinion that i have is that I don't think it makes sense to be drawing window decorations separately from the app / around it... years of seeing how crappy that looked on GtK2, compiz, kwin/plasma, etc has swayed my opinion.... CSD also seems to work well elsewhere / other OSes...

that all said. I do think DWD (Dynamic Window Decorations, for those not familiar), seeems like it could be a good strategy for making all use cases work... however, I don't think it solves the above; decoration and app window would still be drawn separately, afaict? ... in which case, it's just just adding some of the advantages of CSD to SSD - but it's really still SSD, right?

admittedly, I haven't read a ton about DWD, but here is one blog/article for anyone who may be interested.

https://iwf1.com/kdes-new-concept-for-window-decorations-dwd

[sebastianlacuesta]

Why this rant (crying) about forcing SSD and against CSD?
I thought that a window manager just was there for, well, position windows around screens. I think that if an app distribute its own close, maximise, etc buttons wherever it wants, that's fine. And if it doesn't and want the WM do it, well that's fine too. I thought Linux was all about choice.😁

[starshipeleven]

I am NOT a Gnome troll or fanbois.

*fanboi (singular).
Yes, yes you are.

You desperately try to show GNOME has much better penetration than it actually has, by claiming that being default DE in some distros (some are derivatives, like SteamOS) means it has better penetration when it's sketchy at best.

Apart from Fedora and Ubuntu, other distros support KDE seriously so many people just install that instead of the "default", and there are many other distros supporting seriously one or another DE. Unless you manage to pull up some numbers, it's still uncertain.

Whatever pissed you off about Gnome 3 when it was first released....oh....7 YEARS AGO this April....may not be there anymore.

Did latest GNOME 3 come with a non-touch-centric interface, extensive user-selectable settings, and also a STABLE extensions API? No it does not. And it's been 7 years already.

Even Linus Torvalds, after trashing Gnome, has come back to it after using KDE and Xfce. While not proof that Gnome doesn't suck in the general anymore, it could mean that for Linus it sucks less than the rest. Or....it just meets his needs better now than the rest. At least he came back to it and gave it another try. Unlike a lot of you KDE flamers.

Or that he does not really give a shit since most of his work is done through terminal and text editors anyway, while other people that would like something more are pissed off more.

[birdie]

Linux on the desktop: not enough mess, not enough fuckery, not enough wasted resources, not enough hasty decisions, not enough users' disrespect, not enough instability, not enough bugs, not enough brain-damaged UI copycats (like fucking ugly Windows 8/10 UI, with equally fucking ugly grey icons everywhere).

Let me have some popcorn.

It's just amazing!

[Guest]

And yet, despite all this Gnome hate, KDE is a distant also ran when it comes to desktop DE placements. Maybe the combined multi-year debacle of KDE 3 and KDE 4 and
KDE 5... ( in particular )... along with their linkage to Qt which was a crap show early on in its move from v4.0 to v5.0 has something to do with it.

Gnome is the default DE for Fedora/Red Hat/CentOS/Oracle/Scientific Linux
Gnome is the default DE for Suse
Gnome is the default DE for Ubuntu
Gnome is the default DE for Solaris
Gnome is the default DE for Intel's Clear Linux
Gnome is the default DE for SteamOS
Gnome is the default DE for Kali Linux

Mate, while originally a fork of Gnome 2, is now based on Gnome 3 framework, forked Gnome 3 apps and GTK+ 3
Cinnamon is a derivative of Gnome 3 and GTK+ 3
Budgie, although being re-written in Qt supposedly, is currently a fork of Gnome 3 and is based on GTK+ 3
Xfce, although not a Gnome fork, is being re-based on GTK+ 3 just as Gnome and all the Gnome derivatives

And in a recent poll on THIS very site, Gnome was the #1 DE used by participants of the poll.

I am NOT a Gnome troll or fanbois. But I will respond to KDE users who insist on trashing another DE simply because they don't have a preference for said DE. State your objections from YOUR SUBJECTIVE observations. But stop whining simply because you're in the minority.

Whatever pissed you off about Gnome 3 when it was first released....oh....7 YEARS AGO this April....may not be there anymore. Even Linus Torvalds, after trashing Gnome, has come back to it after using KDE and Xfce. While not proof that Gnome doesn't suck in the general anymore, it could mean that for Linus it sucks less than the rest. Or....it just meets his needs better now than the rest. At least he came back to it and gave it another try. Unlike a lot of you KDE flamers.

Yes, Gnome is default in many distributions, but three years ago KDE was more popular. If you have some current polls (except mentione one) I'd like to see them. I don't care about Gnome derivatives like Cinnamon, because it's very different DE. It's Gnome made right.

https://www.cio.com/article/2881172/...vironment.html

Furthermore, everyone switches from gtk+ to Qt and nobody does opposite.

Ps. when comes to Gnome apps most of them are crap and I have no single one in my system. And I forgot to add slowlaris is DEAD.

[Guest]

Linux on the desktop: not enough mess, not enough fuckery, not enough wasted resources, not enough hasty decisions, not enough users' disrespect, not enough instability, not enough bugs, not enough brain-damaged UI copycats (like fucking ugly Windows 8/10 UI, with equally fucking ugly grey icons everywhere).

Let me have some popcorn.

It's just amazing!

Not enough holes and instability like in fuckin winblows, not enough morons like birdie and so on. Don't eat popcorn when you're full of shit.

[duby229]

Linux on the desktop: not enough mess, not enough fuckery, not enough wasted resources, not enough hasty decisions, not enough users' disrespect, not enough instability, not enough bugs, not enough brain-damaged UI copycats (like fucking ugly Windows 8/10 UI, with equally fucking ugly grey icons everywhere).

Let me have some popcorn.

It's just amazing!

There are quite a lot of those points that are just blatantly not true, but it does make some good points. It's just a bit too biased for my opinion.

[Thaodan]

And yet, despite all this Gnome hate, KDE is a distant also ran when it comes to desktop DE placements. Maybe the combined multi-year debacle of KDE 3 and KDE 4 and
KDE 5... ( in particular )... along with their linkage to Qt which was a crap show early on in its move from v4.0 to v5.0 has something to do with it.

Gnome is the default DE for Fedora/Red Hat/CentOS/Oracle/Scientific Linux
Gnome is the default DE for Suse
Gnome is the default DE for Ubuntu
Gnome is the default DE for Solaris
Gnome is the default DE for Intel's Clear Linux
Gnome is the default DE for SteamOS
Gnome is the default DE for Kali Linux

Mate, while originally a fork of Gnome 2, is now based on Gnome 3 framework, forked Gnome 3 apps and GTK+ 3
Cinnamon is a derivative of Gnome 3 and GTK+ 3
Budgie, although being re-written in Qt supposedly, is currently a fork of Gnome 3 and is based on GTK+ 3
Xfce, although not a Gnome fork, is being re-based on GTK+ 3 just as Gnome and all the Gnome derivatives

And in a recent poll on THIS very site, Gnome was the #1 DE used by participants of the poll.

I am NOT a Gnome troll or fanbois. But I will respond to KDE users who insist on trashing another DE simply because they don't have a preference for said DE. State your objections from YOUR SUBJECTIVE observations. But stop whining simply because you're in the minority.

Whatever pissed you off about Gnome 3 when it was first released....oh....7 YEARS AGO this April....may not be there anymore. Even Linus Torvalds, after trashing Gnome, has come back to it after using KDE and Xfce. While not proof that Gnome doesn't suck in the general anymore, it could mean that for Linus it sucks less than the rest. Or....it just meets his needs better now than the rest. At least he came back to it and gave it another try. Unlike a lot of you KDE flamers.

Never saw Suse having as default DE.
Except for SLES.
Suse even stats KDE as the default DE.
Fedora Supports KDE just as GNOME.

the issue is enforcing CSD even when the WM says you dont want it.

[Jumbotron]

again gnome and redhat imposing this things to othrers

Congratulations. You just surpassed the President of the United States for THE MOST stupid thing said today. Yeah...right....Larry Ellison of Oracle capitulated to Red Hat after Red Hat's CEO put a gun to his head and said..."Use Gnome or else!"

[Britoid]

Never saw Suse having as default DE.
Except for SLES.
Suse even stats KDE as the default DE.
Fedora Supports KDE just as GNOME.

the issue is enforcing CSD even when the WM says you dont want it.

Pretty sure a WM can ignore the CSD request and draw a pointless border around it anyway.