KWin Developer's Response To The GNOME CSD Initiative

[Guest]

Congratulations. You just surpassed the President of the United States for THE MOST stupid thing said today. Yeah...right....Larry Ellison of Oracle capitulated to Red Hat after Red Hat's CEO put a gun to his head and said..."Use Gnome or else!"

Ellison didn't have much choice. They don't even have enough manpower to keep slowlaris alive, so they had to change default DE to better supported one.

[Jumbotron]

*fanboi (singular).
Yes, yes you are.

You desperately try to show GNOME has much better penetration than it actually has, by claiming that being default DE in some distros (some are derivatives, like SteamOS) means it has better penetration when it's sketchy at best.

Apart from Fedora and Ubuntu, other distros support KDE seriously so many people just install that instead of the "default", and there are many other distros supporting seriously one or another DE. Unless you manage to pull up some numbers, it's still uncertain.

Did latest GNOME 3 come with a non-touch-centric interface, extensive user-selectable settings, and also a STABLE extensions API? No it does not. And it's been 7 years already.

Or that he does not really give a shit since most of his work is done through terminal and text editors anyway, while other people that would like something more are pissed off more.

Once again...bullshit from Star Troll.

Look junior....did I SAY that KDE was NOT supported ALSO on those distros that default to Gnome. Answer...NO. Take a course in remedial reading comprehension my friend.

7 times....SEVEN...times I said DEFAULT....not ONLY.

Your gripes about Gnome are SUBJECTIVE....not OBJECTIVE. I have used some sort of Gnome based distro....( Fedora, Ubuntu, openSuse, SteamOS, Solus with Gnome )...since the debacle of the KDE 5 release. I used KDE 5 early on in ALL those distros with the exception of SteamOS and Solus. I gave each one a good several week go. I let my family also use them with KDE. And to a person we have ALL found ourselves preferring Gnome over KDE from a usability and esthetic standpoint AND STABILITY. I STILL have not seen all this INSTABILITY you Gnome haters talk about. But everyone's setup is different. I get that.

I have GONE BACK and TRIED KDE again on a recent install of openSUSE just to give both another try as a distro and a DE. KDE 5.x is MUCH better than before. But STILL DOES NOT work for me from a usability and esthetic standpoint. It STILL looks to much like Windows 7 with Flat icons, even some monochromatic. Study after study has shown that when it comes to Flat vs Skeuomorphic icon schemes that comprehension rates especially from unskilled or first time users is HIGHER with Skeuomorphic icons rather than Flat. Yes...yes...I know you can change that with KDE. It still would not go entirely the way in solving FOR ME the totality of esthetics and usability I get with Gnome. To each his own.

That does NOT make me a fanbois (sic). But I WILL push back against KDE flamers on this site. And to your bullshit Star Troll.

[Jumbotron]

Ellison didn't have much choice. They don't even have enough manpower to keep slowlaris alive, so they had to change default DE to better supported one.

I've met Ellison. If there is one thing about Ellison he ALWAYS has a choice.

Granted, I was being a bit facetious, as I know Ellison doesn't give 2 craps about Solaris. That said, your answer belies the fact of why Solaris went with Gnome instead of KDE as the default DE.

Better support. 'Nuff said.

[M@yeulC]

very diplomatic and a balanced view... i generally lean more towards CSD, it does seem more flexible than traditional SSD... but another issue and opinion that i have is that I don't think it makes sense to be drawing window decorations separately from the app / around it... years of seeing how crappy that looked on GtK2, compiz, kwin/plasma, etc has swayed my opinion.... CSD also seems to work well elsewhere / other OSes...

that all said. I do think DWD (Dynamic Window Decorations, for those not familiar), seeems like it could be a good strategy for making all use cases work... however, I don't think it solves the above; decoration and app window would still be drawn separately, afaict? ... in which case, it's just just adding some of the advantages of CSD to SSD - but it's really still SSD, right?

admittedly, I haven't read a ton about DWD, but here is one blog/article for anyone who may be interested.


https://iwf1.com/kdes-new-concept-fo...ecorations-dwd

Well, you can't really have any real progress on this front without diplomacy. And it is just because arguments are balanced enough that we can't seem to reach an universal consensus on this issue.

Some additional information on DWD:

https://kver.wordpress.com/2014/10/25/presenting-dwd-a-candidate-for-kde-window-decorations/

https://kver.wordpress.com/2016/03/15/dwd-structured-at-cern/

I did reach out to the GNOME design group on Matrix (and spent a couple hours chatting there), they sound pretty open-minded, and say that they already support kde ssd protocol (that is probably only in GTK, though).

Yes, painting is still handled by the compositor with DWD. Well, I guess it's a question of taste. And yes, it would add some of the CSD advantages to SSD environments, but it would also make it easier for SSD-centered apps to support the GNOME look-and-feel where apps have buttons in their title bars.

[Charlie68]

.... openSUSE uses the default KDE not Gnome which is used only in the enterprise version.

Certainly we KDE users are a minority and therefore? What's the problem ? We'll be damned because Gnome is very disgusting?

[dungeon]

whats wrong with slavery ?

It is opposite of freedom

[dungeon]

And yet, despite all this Gnome hate, KDE is a distant also ran when it comes to desktop DE placements. Maybe the combined multi-year debacle of KDE 3 and KDE 4 and
KDE 5... ( in particular )... along with their linkage to Qt which was a crap show early on in its move from v4.0 to v5.0 has something to do with it.

Gnome is the default DE for Fedora/Red Hat/CentOS/Oracle/Scientific Linux
Gnome is the default DE for Suse
Gnome is the default DE for Ubuntu
Gnome is the default DE for Solaris
Gnome is the default DE for Intel's Clear Linux
Gnome is the default DE for SteamOS
Gnome is the default DE for Kali Linux

Mate, while originally a fork of Gnome 2, is now based on Gnome 3 framework, forked Gnome 3 apps and GTK+ 3
Cinnamon is a derivative of Gnome 3 and GTK+ 3
Budgie, although being re-written in Qt supposedly, is currently a fork of Gnome 3 and is based on GTK+ 3
Xfce, although not a Gnome fork, is being re-based on GTK+ 3 just as Gnome and all the Gnome derivatives

And in a recent poll on THIS very site, Gnome was the #1 DE used by participants of the poll.

I am NOT a Gnome troll or fanbois. But I will respond to KDE users who insist on trashing another DE simply because they don't have a preference for said DE. State your objections from YOUR SUBJECTIVE observations. But stop whining simply because you're in the minority.

Whatever pissed you off about Gnome 3 when it was first released....oh....7 YEARS AGO this April....may not be there anymore. Even Linus Torvalds, after trashing Gnome, has come back to it after using KDE and Xfce. While not proof that Gnome doesn't suck in the general anymore, it could mean that for Linus it sucks less than the rest. Or....it just meets his needs better now than the rest. At least he came back to it and gave it another try. Unlike a lot of you KDE flamers.

What is default in distros is different of what majority of people use.

I know for Debian for example, Gnome was and is default in installer for any Debian releases... in theory yes in practice no as reality is different, just about 30% of people uses Gnome, while majority so these 70% uses something else than Gnome

Gnome is default among distros? Yes.
Gnome is used by majority? No.

Remember also that Debian never had Unity DE, that was Ubuntu only thing... now imagine that Unity was also for other distro frendly and that also it come into percentage survey figures, it is easy to guess that situation for Gnome would be much worse than these 30%

That is what it is, in Gnome 2 times it was used by majority in Debian and more than 50% about 55%, but nowdays situation is not like that - with Gnome 3 it crawled down to about 30%, so it's usage nearly halfed even without Unity there... to note again and again how Unity does not infiltrate these results, since that DE does not exist in Debian

You can make default whatever you want, but if you also give people choice they pick whatever they like and reject whatever they don't And that is exactly what Gnome now wanna push - rejected DE take two and i really wish them good luck with that

Pushing things too much is very problematic as that introducing sado-maso heat thus normal people go back to Windows or whatever else OS just to avoid crazy deviants

Which side will win? Well, only time will tell.

Year of Linux Desktop is near Most used in Europe by 2.14% and least used in Oceania 1.01%... averaging 1.54% worldwide NA and US slightly bellow average

http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-...ktop/worldwide

Doubled gain for Linux in Europe for last decade looks fine, only if OSX didn't quadrupled as it is in the same period... obviosly all losers uses Windows

Mac and PlayStation seems best second alternative combos in Europe

Third alternative seems to be fight between Linux and Unknown

Putting everything in perspective these 30% and 1.54% worldwide... that means how on average 1 desktop penguin out of 100 does not use Gnome and half-penguin out of 100 uses Gnome Or 1 penguin out of 200 non-penguins if you like

[RelaxTrolls]

Well, you can't really have any real progress on this front without diplomacy. And it is just because arguments are balanced enough that we can't seem to reach an universal consensus on this issue.

Some additional information on DWD:

https://kver.wordpress.com/2014/10/25/presenting-dwd-a-candidate-for-kde-window-decorations/

https://kver.wordpress.com/2016/03/15/dwd-structured-at-cern/

I did reach out to the GNOME design group on Matrix (and spent a couple hours chatting there), they sound pretty open-minded, and say that they already support kde ssd protocol (that is probably only in GTK, though).

Yes, painting is still handled by the compositor with DWD. Well, I guess it's a question of taste. And yes, it would add some of the CSD advantages to SSD environments, but it would also make it easier for SSD-centered apps to support the GNOME look-and-feel where apps have buttons in their title bars.

thanks for the additional info / response.

I would imagine you are correct, on Gtk && KDE SSD support. I can't imagine that GNOME would want to do SSD in Gnome, directly, because they have chosen CSD...

Is it a matter of taste though? I seem to recall that in some early Wayland talks/presentations Kristian Høgsberg discussed the shortcomings of SSD and why Weston was using CSD - issues to do with clipping regions, resize, moving windows and SSD using more resources / higher costs and being less efficient... mind you, he was in part talking about X11, but I was under the impression, this was true with Wayland, as well (to a lesser degree?). ... I would be curious to know if this sort of thing was negligible with Wayland (?)....

it would be interesting to see if gnome, while not being interested in using SSD in gnome, would support DWD?. ... it seems like it might be worth consideration and also useful for some of the other DEs that are based on gnome tech, potentially..

the whole CSD vs. SSD situation is definitely tricky to solve due to the balanced arguments. - it would be interesting to know the factors that decided CSD on other platforms vs. using SSD. (like microsft / Apple).

[PackRat]

And yet, despite all this Gnome hate, KDE is a distant also ran when it comes to desktop DE placements. Maybe the combined multi-year debacle of KDE 3 and KDE 4 and
KDE 5... ( in particular )... along with their linkage to Qt which was a crap show early on in its move from v4.0 to v5.0 has something to do with it.

Gnome is the default DE for Fedora/Red Hat/CentOS/Oracle/Scientific Linux
Gnome is the default DE for Suse
Gnome is the default DE for Ubuntu
Gnome is the default DE for Solaris
Gnome is the default DE for Intel's Clear Linux
Gnome is the default DE for SteamOS
Gnome is the default DE for Kali Linux

Mate, while originally a fork of Gnome 2, is now based on Gnome 3 framework, forked Gnome 3 apps and GTK+ 3
Cinnamon is a derivative of Gnome 3 and GTK+ 3
Budgie, although being re-written in Qt supposedly, is currently a fork of Gnome 3 and is based on GTK+ 3
Xfce, although not a Gnome fork, is being re-based on GTK+ 3 just as Gnome and all the Gnome derivatives

And in a recent poll on THIS very site, Gnome was the #1 DE used by participants of the poll.

I am NOT a Gnome troll or fanbois. But I will respond to KDE users who insist on trashing another DE simply because they don't have a preference for said DE. State your objections from YOUR SUBJECTIVE observations. But stop whining simply because you're in the minority.

Whatever pissed you off about Gnome 3 when it was first released....oh....7 YEARS AGO this April....may not be there anymore. Even Linus Torvalds, after trashing Gnome, has come back to it after using KDE and Xfce. While not proof that Gnome doesn't suck in the general anymore, it could mean that for Linus it sucks less than the rest. Or....it just meets his needs better now than the rest. At least he came back to it and gave it another try. Unlike a lot of you KDE flamers.

20 years of gtk dominance on linux is going nowhere. This is chess not checkers, stacking up 5+ gtk desktops is not a win. The Linux Desktop has failed to gain market share it is completely stagnant with it's gtk majority. Linux is living in a bubble and outside this bubble qt is the majority for cross-platform desktop apps. Qt is dominant in the film industry and video game industries. Pixar uses redhat and you will see them using gnome but go take a look at their career section and they are hiring for c++ and qt. We have already witnessed Redhat's bubble burst like "7 YEARS AGO" or later when Wetadigital switched to kubuntu. Pixar ,Wetadigital and Epic games all use Autodesk Maya. Unreal engine 4 has a tool that works with Autodesk Maya and to use Maya ancient centos/rhel is the only disto supported, meanwhile epic recommends ubuntu lts. Who is using gnome builder for UE4? wtf UE4 has kdevelop plugin for windows. Valve even promoted qt-creator for game development on ubuntu unity in 2014 steam dev day's. Steamos only defaulted to gnome because they forked it from debian and it's really suppose to be more console like with big picture mode. Notice that the push here was to avoid all these bullshit desktops in the first place. Omgubuntu had an article the other day about the decline of native linux (gtk!) apps. What a mess...

[dungeon]

And in a recent poll on THIS very site, Gnome was the #1 DE used by participants of the poll.

Not sure what poll was here... on GOL site for last month Gnome is also "a winner", 2154 people there uses:

GNOME: 543 (25.21%) Difference: (+0.79% overall, +34 people)
KDE Plasma: 499 (23.17%) Difference: (+0.57% overall, +28 people)
Unity: 243 (11.28%) Difference: (-0.52% overall, -3 people)
XFCE: 242 (11.23%) Difference: (-0.81% overall, -9 people)
Cinnamon: 202 (9.38%) Difference: (-0.17% overall, +3 people)
Window Manager Only: 160 (7.43%) Difference: (+0.09% overall, +7 people)
MATE: 119 (5.52%) Difference: (-0.14% overall, +1 people)
Budgie: 76 (3.53%) Difference: (+0.27% overall, +8 people)
LXDE: 26 (1.21%) Difference: (+0.01% overall, +1 people)
Pantheon Shell: 18 (0.84%) Difference: (-0.07% overall, -1 people)
LXQt: 12 (0.56%) Difference: (-0.02% overall, 0 people)
Enlightenment: 10 (0.46%) Difference: (-0.02% overall, 0 people)
Deepin Desktop Environment: 4 (0.19%) Difference: (+0.05% overall, +1 people)

Hip, hip, hooray, Gnome is most used!!! You see how when Unity is there also Gnome became even less than 30% used, here 25%...

Stop right there, what about 75% of others? Even Gnome + KDE together does not have 50+1% so we can say 'majority'

Even in all predicted ideality if all Unity users switches to Gnome in next couple months/years, that is still only 36% max OMG