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We Have Mir & Wayland, But There Still Could Be X12

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  • Originally posted by ryao View Post
    It is a conflict of interest, but I do not care enough about Wayland to track its development to catch these things. The closest of which I am aware is an incident where Intel reverted a commit to support Canonical's Mir from their driver; it had the side effect of pushing people toward the technologies that they are using in Tizen. Clearly, they have a bias. Anyway, the converse question is do you know of any cases where Wayland's development has compromised Tizen's development goals. I cannot imagine an executive at Intel letting that happen (at least not without firing people).
    You seem pretty confident in believing that there actually can be any permanent conflicts.

    Wayland is a protocol based heavily on extensions. The core is very small and fairly universal, and even that is divided into parts that might be left unimplemented in some circumstances. When conflicting cases appear, they are separated into different extensions, so everyone can live happily together. If upstream does not approve of some extension, that extension can perfectly well live outside of Wayland upstream, and everyone willing can use it. There is no way to really prevent that, either. It is up to individual toolkits (Wayland clients) and compositors (Wayland servers) to decide which parts they implement and rely on.

    Whether some piece of software (as opposed to protocol) that needs active maintenance supports some particular features is a completely different matter.

    On another note, patches written by people with an Intel email address have been rejected.

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    • Originally posted by Remote User View Post
      I have been using X for remote displays quite satisfactorily for my touchscreen applications for over a decade and find nothing really wrong with it. NX does improve performance a bit but there's nothing broken in X that prevents or even hinders my use of it. Since Wayland removes the network transparent capabilities of X it is entirely unsuitable as a reworking of X.
      I'm sorry if I appeared rude. I have read again the thread and indeed you jumped in the discussion only defending the fact that X11 network remote transparency is still used/can be made to work, and it's a valid point.

      But by saying that wayland cannot work for you since it removes the network transparent capabilities of X, you are arguing that wayland should be network transparent. And that is not true.

      In the modern Linux graphic stack (not limited to wayland), the display server displays (and only read buffers), and the toolkits render, using whatever means and acceleration and API and ABI they like, including through the network if they fancy.
      The display server part can do remote displaying like VNC, and I think it has already been demonstrated for Weston with a VNC backend.
      Any toolkit can do remote rendering like X11, and it may even have already been done using xlib (server side) and xwayland (client side).

      There isn't yet seamless remote rendering in wayland. That's expected because there isn't yet seamless wayland anyway.
      But it can be done, and it can be done without wayland having network transparency.

      In short, it is not an issue in the design of the modern Linux graphic stack, it is an issue with the fact that this new graphic stack and ecosystem is not feature complete yet (far from it).

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      • Originally posted by Remote User View Post
        I have been using X for remote displays quite satisfactorily for my touchscreen applications for over a decade and find nothing really wrong with it. NX does improve performance a bit but there's nothing broken in X that prevents or even hinders my use of it. Since Wayland removes the network transparent capabilities of X it is entirely unsuitable as a reworking of X.
        While you are correct, Wayland *can* support headless operation which can be streamed over network (through backend plugins).
        Given that there is a lot of client-side rendering, it won't be necessarily slower than X (NX sets the bar high, though).
        I remain to be convinced what happens about scrolling. Wayland will support it but it will suck over low latency connection (as the server doesn't know what is scrollable content and what are scroll bars). Edit: this is apparently taken care of :http://lwn.net/Articles/555132/
        Last edited by smorovic; 05 October 2013, 02:04 PM.

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        • Originally posted by pq__ View Post
          You seem pretty confident in believing that there actually can be any permanent conflicts.
          That is your assumption. X11 fans such as myself do not care if Wayland could be made to work for our use cases. We do not see the need to replace X11 and we will continue using it for years to come. You are not going to replace the display server on our machines. To put it simply, read xkcd #927:

          Last edited by ryao; 05 October 2013, 05:04 PM.

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          • Originally posted by ryao View Post
            That is your assumption. X11 fans such as myself do not care if Wayland could be made to work for our use cases. We do not see the need to replace X11 and we will continue using it for years to come. You are not going to replace the display server on our machines. To put it simply, read xkcd #927:

            http://xkcd.com/927/
            Ok, if you read xkcd #963

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            • Originally posted by ryao View Post
              That is your assumption. X11 fans such as myself do not care if Wayland could be made to work for our use cases. We do not see the need to replace X11 and we will continue using it for years to come. You are not going to replace the display server on our machines. To put it simply, read xkcd #927:

              http://xkcd.com/927/
              X11 fans?
              ROFL.
              I know there are fan clubs for every stupid thing out there, but why to be a fan of a display server full of flicker, flashes and tearing defects? It's a mistery.
              You do not see the need to replace X11, isn't it?
              LOL, you can see all the reasons just watching your monitor.

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              • Originally posted by valeriodean View Post
                X11 fans?
                I know there are fan clubs for every stupid thing out there, but why to be a fan of a display server full of flicker, flashes and tearing defects? It's a mistery.
                You do not see the need to replace X11, isn't it?
                LOL, you can see all the reasons just watching your monitor.
                This is problem of graphics driver.

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                • Originally posted by valeriodean View Post
                  X11 fans?
                  ROFL.
                  I know there are fan clubs for every stupid thing out there, but why to be a fan of a display server full of flicker, flashes and tearing defects? It's a mistery.
                  You do not see the need to replace X11, isn't it?
                  LOL, you can see all the reasons just watching your monitor.
                  A different display server will not fix graphics driver problems.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JS987 View Post
                    This is problem of graphics driver.
                    Hmm....you might want to tell the X guys that. They've been spending a lot of time trying to fix those problems (hey, look, it's dri3000!). They could've saved that effort if they'd just talked to you.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by liam View Post
                      Hmm....you might want to tell the X guys that. They've been spending a lot of time trying to fix those problems (hey, look, it's dri3000!). They could've saved that effort if they'd just talked to you.
                      I know from firsthand experience that my 2D experience with nouveau is excellent while it is somewhat less good with Nvidia. The key point is that good drivers make a difference.

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