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We Have Mir & Wayland, But There Still Could Be X12

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  • #81
    Originally posted by DDF420 View Post
    You mean The reasons for Wayland's existence, its need, timeliness and transition map from X have been more than exaggerated here,the freedesktop site, and phoronix.com where we make analogous comments that wayland will be some 800 times faster/better than X .
    Was bo$$ mad at you for stealing his comedy routine?

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    • #82
      Originally posted by jukkan View Post
      If you honestly don't know why Wayland was invented, I suggest you do some research.
      I didn't say that I didn't know that. That's just you putting words in my mouth. It must be said that the people behind Wayland have this to day about why they developed it, though; "Wayland is intended as a simpler replacement for X, easier to develop and maintain." They also are forthright in declaring that Wayland is not network transparent. Well, I'm not an X developer or maintainer, so I have no reason to switch to Wayland. I also absolutely require and depend on network transparency, so Wayland is useless to me. It not only doesn't solve any problems I have - it also destroys what works for me. X works perfectly for what I do with touchscreen GUIs at customer locations all around the world. I will never understand why some of you just can't deal with the fact that X makes a lot of things not only possible, but also easy, which would otherwise simply not be possible.

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      • #83
        Originally posted by ryao View Post
        The article does say that Apple would have had to do many extensions to Xorg. However, it also says that Xorg has since implemented the extensions Apple would have needed.

        Anyway, "they need to remove features" is neither a valid reason for nor a benefit from changes to production software. The concept of "implementing brand-new features instead of improving old ones" is a red flag that something is wrong and is held to be one of the things wrong with Windows development:

        I was explaining on Hacker News why Windows fell behind Linux in terms of operating system kernel performance and innovation. And out of nowhere an anonymous...


        Wayland and Mir are under development for Tizen and Ubuntu respectively. The fact that they each exert full control over the repositories does make them a better fit for their respective operating systems than Xorg, but only because controlling the repositories makes collaboration optional for them. In the short term, they can push through anything they need for their own interests and ignore anything that conflicts (which I have seen firsthand in certain other projects). In the long term, it is quite possible that there will be a fair amount of GUI software that will cease to be useful after these display servers have been replaced because the powers that be decided to reinvent the wheel again to fit them better.

        With that said, the only explanation for Wayland that made sense so far was, to paraphrase, "We could have written Xorg extensions, but we did not feel like working with X11 anymore, so we decided to write a replacement server and protocol". I am okay with that, but I am not okay with hype over largely non-existent benefits.
        wow you don't get it at all do you? the only Way to Fix X11 is to fully gut it remove all the old code and write all new code it was faster just to write Wayland and by doing a rewrite to Xorg this way brings in way to many politics Look how pissy the Xorg developers are over DRI3 (it was like them gentoo guys over systemd or was that NIH syndrome) also the X.Org Foundation said wayland is a umbrella of them. and you know the Xorg server is a square block on modern day hardware Wayland is a wheel its what Linux needs to keep rolling and Mir on the other hand is just a sham NIH syndrome (damn 2 things gentoo developers and Canonical have in common)

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        • #84
          Originally posted by ryao View Post
          Wayland and Mir are under development for Tizen and Ubuntu respectively.
          What do you mean that Wayland is being developed "for Tizen"? Clarify please. If you're implying that Tizen developers control the development of Wayland, or that Tizen is the #1 priority for Wayland development, can you show some evidence for that? AFAIK Wayland is an open project, and is influenced and backed by Intel and Red Hat both, but not controlled by any single business entity.

          With that said, the only explanation for Wayland that made sense so far was, to paraphrase, "We could have written Xorg extensions, but we did not feel like working with X11 anymore, so we decided to write a replacement server and protocol". I am okay with that, but I am not okay with hype over largely non-existent benefits.
          How about you go read that Phoronix article where Wayland devs explain everything that's wrong with X and how some of those things are literally impossible to fix because of architectural shortcomings of X. Or watch the video of that one conference where a Wayland dev (ex. X dev) explains the same.

          Things like it being impossible to properly synchronize subwindows - go on a youtube page and scroll it up and down, and you see the youtube video is not in sync with the page. This was, IIRC, one of the things that is practically impossible to fix in X.

          And another thing was something about pop-up windows stealing input, and screensavers can't activate when a popup window is active, and some stuff about volume keys not working when under screensaver, and all that stuff... lots of small things, that add up if you count them all.

          Oh and Wayland is expected to bring less overhead, smoother rendering, less tearing or flickering - the ability to resize windows without them flickering all over the place would be nice, IMO. Sometimes, X gives me flickers even when I just scroll webpages.

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          • #85
            Originally posted by dee. View Post
            What do you mean that Wayland is being developed "for Tizen"? Clarify please. If you're implying that Tizen developers control the development of Wayland, or that Tizen is the #1 priority for Wayland development, can you show some evidence for that? AFAIK Wayland is an open project, and is influenced and backed by Intel and Red Hat both, but not controlled by any single business entity.
            Intel is developing both Wayland and Tizen in collaboration with Redhat and Samsung respectively. It is no secret that Wayland is meant to make things easier for touch screens than it is with the current Xorg. It is not hard to imagine Intel's interest in having Wayland work well on Tizen, a mobile OS whose development they are in part funding, would not make Tizen's requirements their first priority and that anything that conflicts with Tizen will be rejected.

            Originally posted by dee. View Post
            How about you go read that Phoronix article where Wayland devs explain everything that's wrong with X and how some of those things are literally impossible to fix because of architectural shortcomings of X. Or watch the video of that one conference where a Wayland dev (ex. X dev) explains the same.

            Things like it being impossible to properly synchronize subwindows - go on a youtube page and scroll it up and down, and you see the youtube video is not in sync with the page. This was, IIRC, one of the things that is practically impossible to fix in X.

            And another thing was something about pop-up windows stealing input, and screensavers can't activate when a popup window is active, and some stuff about volume keys not working when under screensaver, and all that stuff... lots of small things, that add up if you count them all.

            Oh and Wayland is expected to bring less overhead, smoother rendering, less tearing or flickering - the ability to resize windows without them flickering all over the place would be nice, IMO. Sometimes, X gives me flickers even when I just scroll webpages.
            These things could be accomplished with X11 extensions. The Wayland developers themselves have said so. They just do not want to keep working with X11.

            By the way, your flickers when scrolling webpages could be caused by your display driver. I know that Nouveau has better 2D performance than Nvidia on my hardware. I have observed qualitatively higher 2D frame rates with it and I would describe it as being silky smooth.
            Last edited by ryao; 05 October 2013, 12:48 AM.

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            • #86
              Originally posted by ryao View Post
              Intel is developing both Wayland and Tizen in collaboration with Redhat and Samsung respectively. It is no secret that Wayland is meant to make things easier for touch screens than it is with the current Xorg. It is not hard to imagine Intel's interest in having Wayland work well on Tizen, a mobile OS whose development they are in part funding, would not make Tizen's requirements their first priority and that anything that conflicts with Tizen will be rejected.

              These things could be accomplished with X11 extensions. The Wayland developers themselves have said so. They just do not want to keep working with X11.

              By the way, your flickers when scrolling webpages could be caused by your display driver. I know that Nouveau has better 2D performance than Nvidia on my hardware. I have observed qualitatively higher 2D frame rates with it and I would describe it as being silky smooth.
              Are you kidding or just high? is BO$$ your twin?

              Ohh knows Wayland is the Devil!!

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              • #87
                Originally posted by ryao View Post
                Intel is developing both Wayland and Tizen in collaboration with Redhat and Samsung respectively. It is no secret that Wayland is meant to make things easier for touch screens than it is with the current Xorg. It is not hard to imagine Intel's interest in having Wayland work well on Tizen, a mobile OS whose development they are in part funding, would not make Tizen's requirements their first priority and that anything that conflicts with Tizen will be rejected.
                So in other words, this is all speculation on your part, and you don't know of any actual cases where Tizen's development would have compromised Wayland development goals?

                Incidentally, Tizen is not just a mobile OS. It has three versions: mobile Tizen, desktop Tizen and Tizen IVI. Mobile Tizen will run on phones/tablets, IVI on IVI systems, but the desktop version is more like an actual Linux distro - it's meant to use GNOME shell, with custom Tizen-specific extensions to differentiate the UI. Intel is presumably bringing Ultrabooks with this version of Tizen available at some time.

                So it's probable, that Intel has more than enough vested interest to keep Wayland functional on desktops and other keyboard/mouse-driven environments. Also,

                These things could be accomplished with X11 extensions. The Wayland developers themselves have said so. They just do not want to keep working with X11.
                Where have they said these things? AFAIK the Wayland devs themselves have said that these things cannot be realistically fixed in X. That it is actually impossible to fix these things in X without breaking and rewriting the entire protocol.

                Phoronix, Linux Hardware Reviews, Linux hardware benchmarks, Linux server benchmarks, Linux benchmarking, Desktop Linux, Linux performance, Open Source graphics, Linux How To, Ubuntu benchmarks, Ubuntu hardware, Phoronix Test Suite


                Originally posted by Wayland developer
                X) Everything is a window to X, there's no different window types, its just ?A window.?

                A) Your screensaver? Its a window that told X:
                1) Put me above all other windows, at all times.
                2) Make me fullscreen.
                3) Give me all input.

                B) A pop up window? Its a window that told X:
                1) Put me RIGHT HERE.
                2) Give me all input.

                C) Problem? For one: they clash. Your screensaver won't activate while a pop-up window is up because they conflict.

                D) Your screensaver, and screenlocker, probably didn't hook into all the necessary libraries to understand media keys... the problem there is when you're working at home listening to some music, you get up to leave, close the lid and head out. Laptop's asleep, screensaver is the 'active' window. As soon as you open the lid up, your music kicks back in, blaring out of your speakers and its just easier for you to close the lid again and deal with it later rather than scramble to put in your password, open the media player and pause it, or hit mute.

                E) The developers tried to fix it. They specced out an extension, had the theory ready. But when it came time to implement it, they realized it would break the X Model too badly. This has been broken for 26yrs, and its going to STAY broken. Enjoy.


                By the way, your flickers when scrolling webpages could be caused by your display driver. I know that Nouveau has better 2D performance than Nvidia on my hardware. I have observed qualitatively higher 2D frame rates with it and I would describe it as being silky smooth.
                Meh, possibly. But I like to play games now and then so I unfortunately have to use the blobby driver on one of my machines. I guess I could do some fancy dualboot config, with a dedicated gaming installation...

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                • #88
                  Originally posted by dee. View Post
                  So in other words, this is all speculation on your part, and you don't know of any actual cases where Tizen's development would have compromised Wayland development goals?
                  It is a conflict of interest, but I do not care enough about Wayland to track its development to catch these things. The closest of which I am aware is an incident where Intel reverted a commit to support Canonical's Mir from their driver; it had the side effect of pushing people toward the technologies that they are using in Tizen. Clearly, they have a bias. Anyway, the converse question is do you know of any cases where Wayland's development has compromised Tizen's development goals. I cannot imagine an executive at Intel letting that happen (at least not without firing people).

                  Originally posted by dee. View Post
                  Where have they said these things? AFAIK the Wayland devs themselves have said that these things cannot be realistically fixed in X. That it is actually impossible to fix these things in X without breaking and rewriting the entire protocol.
                  A while back, I read comment by Kristian H?gsberg that stated what he was doing with Wayland could have been an X11 extension, but it would have left the rest of the X server inert. In the extreme case, it is not hard to imagine an extension that encapsulates a new protocol inside of the existing X11 protocol. It has been a while and I can no longer find it, but your own comments seem to corroborate my recollection. From what you say, it seems clear that this could have been done with X11 (much like web 2.0 can be done with HTTP), but it would not have been done how you would like.

                  Anyway, I have repeatedly said that it is okay for people to go off and do their own thing. I just don't think that reinventing the wheel merits hype.
                  Last edited by ryao; 05 October 2013, 02:46 AM. Reason: Fixed typo where I referred to Tizen as Mir

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                  • #89
                    Originally posted by skies View Post
                    DRI2 is Linux specific right? or do AIX, IRIX, Solaris and HP-UX have DRI2?
                    Wrong. Solaris & BSD also have DRI2. IRIX is dead. I don't know that AIX or HP-UX do much X since they ended workstation support years ago (certainly they haven't been too active in X.Org in recent years).

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                    • #90
                      Originally posted by dee. View Post
                      Meh, possibly. But I like to play games now and then so I unfortunately have to use the blobby driver on one of my machines. I guess I could do some fancy dualboot config, with a dedicated gaming installation...
                      It seems we are in the same boat. I just ran `nvidia-settings -a InitialPixmapPlacement=4` (the default on my system is 2) on my system and restarted Xorg. 2D performance seems better, but it could just be the placebo effect. You might want to try that out too. I found that setting after doing a quick google search for "nvidia linux driver 2d performance". The meaning of the values is documented in the source:



                      I also found another setting that I plan to try out:



                      Edit: It turns out that it was either the placebo effect or the effect of a freshly started Xorg server. That setting does not persist across Xorg sessions. :/
                      Last edited by ryao; 05 October 2013, 03:08 AM.

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