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Linux Developers To Meet Again To Work On HDR, Color Management & VRR

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  • #41
    Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post

    Xorg never had HDR. It has high bit depth which isn't the same thing.
    Moreover, although Xorg technically supports 10 bpc, many X clients can't handle it, so it's not enabled by default. In contrast, Wayland compositors have exposed 10 bpc formats to clients for a long time without issues, and some are using them for output by default (mutter will as of 46).​

    Originally posted by theriddick View Post
    XOrg could only do VRR with 1 monitor enabled also. I could never get it working correctly with more then 1 monitor even if they others had VRR also.
    Technically it is possible, though only for fullscreen windows spanning the full desktop (i.e. all monitors plus any empty areas), due to architectural limitations of Xorg.

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    • #42
      Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post

      The events become secondary to the CoC only to people like yourself and others in this thread because ya'll obsess over them. They're just trying to keep people safe and feeling welcome and then some 4channers who weren't going to participate in those projects or leave their house come screeching in going "But I'm a shithead. What if I want to harass a trans person? This CoC infringes on muh freedom"

      Edit: Removed what I said about Skeevy. My bad! I skimmed over it too quickly and interpreted it completely incorrectly! You can still see what I said in Luke's quote but I definitely read it wrong. Sorry, Skeevy!
      I don't know what you said, but it's OK. I can see how any talk of a CoC can be taken wrong, especially on Phoronix where we're allowed to voice our out-there thoughts about subjects.

      The people I know that aren't good people, a CoC isn't going to make them suddenly become a better person. They're the kind of people who see violating a CoC in that manner as a badge of honor and will act like the punishment to their bigotry makes them a First Amendment, Freedom of Speech, Champion...which is funny because this is happening in Spain and I'd love to see someone go off about 1A in not-America. Granted, I'd be surprised if any of them even knew WTF a Linux even was to manage to make it to an HDR event in Spain. Big-headed people like them are why airports have "Foreigners and Americans This Way" signs.

      I'd like to think that us Linux users are better than that. Regardless of our backgrounds, we all have a respect for FOSS, openness, cooperation, and participation and I'd like to think that those ideals would expand into us also having tolerance, acceptance, and kindness.

      Thoughts and assumptions. Silly me

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      • #43
        Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post

        One of these days I really want to sit one of my friends down in front of a Linux install and see if they have the same reaction to Xorg that I did when I first started using Linux.
        Modern Linux or back in the Golden Era of Linux desktops when we had Compiz, Emerald, etc? Because if it's back in the day when 1080p was the highest resolution ever, before GTK3, when we had all those spiffy desktop effects with X11 compositors, and we're limiting it to using a single monitor, they'd be sold on old-school Linux. It's modern Linux, X11 or Wayland, that just isn't as good as it used to be. Make UIs Great Again.

        MUGA

        Build That Firewall

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        • #44
          Originally posted by mxan View Post
          All stuff X.Org already had
          Troll detected.

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          • #45
            Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post

            Modern Linux or back in the Golden Era of Linux desktops when we had Compiz, Emerald, etc? Because if it's back in the day when 1080p was the highest resolution ever, before GTK3, when we had all those spiffy desktop effects with X11 compositors, and we're limiting it to using a single monitor, they'd be sold on old-school Linux. It's modern Linux, X11 or Wayland, that just isn't as good as it used to be. Make UIs Great Again.

            MUGA

            Build That Firewall
            Back when you couldn't get a linux desktop without tearing too - that was indeed an instant turn off for many when it came to linux.

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            • #46
              Originally posted by Anux View Post
              HDR has many obstacles that need to be addressed, not all can be addressed by software developers though.

              First you need an internal color space that is a superset of all color spaces you want to support. And this alone is an imperfect decision because there is no perfect color space to use. Oklab is probably one of the best in terms of color accuracy but it can not account for viewing conditions (dark vs. bright room) and is only optimized for D65 white point.
              Gamut isn't really that hard, rec2020/2100 colorspace already is that. The majority of content is mastered for DCI-p3. But we also have scRGB which is a modification of sRGB to allow a much greater gamut, and a linear transfer. Either scRGB or bt.2020 would be fine.

              Then you need to clip or map the different color spaces to what the display supports and we have no idea which display has which limits. Only calibrated displays can get good tone mapping.
              This is two things, gamut mapping and tone mapping, Gamut mapping isn't that hard, we have been doing gamut mapping since the 90s or even before. it's mostly a solved problem. (it's not super simple which is why we have the rendering intent system). Tone mapping is much harder but this would ideally your HDR should be calibrated to your display PC side, but only a basic "general nit brightness" is necessary for that calibration. (This is actually a major issue on windows since default is something stupid like 1200 or 1500nits, window's HDR looks a lot better when you correct this.)

              Most modern HDR displays will do the necessary mappings themselves when feed with REC2020 and HDR metadata but like sRGB, quality highly depends on that implementation.
              While this is true, but this is also just the status quo as it has been for decades now, so not really relevant IMO

              HDR material (movies) will typically get mastered with 1000 nits or higher and mapping that down to less nits will result in blown out details. With games you could do a much more flexible approach, if you know the characteristics of the display.
              Tone mapping actually doesn't look that bad, even when mapping down to 600 or even 400 nits, it still looks way better then sRGB, it's just a matter of properly mapping it. MPV's spline tonemapper is probably the most "Flexible" but bt.2446a is also quite reliable too. It is for sure less then ideal, but it still looks and works fine. Even when feeding my crappy HDR10 only display, PQ1000 looks way better then sRGB content. even when using a variety of tonemappers like spline, bt.2446a, 2390, hable etc.

              When you look at Microsofts HDR implementation it is really shit because it can't know what display properties it's working with, while Apple has equipped all their devices with P3 displays and can therefore make much better assumptions about how the result will look like.
              And Valve has a similar (known display) situation with their steam devices but lack the proper support OS wise.
              see my above statement on MS' HDR. the vast majority of the issue is microsoft's very dumb defaults. Fixing the peak nits of the display fixes the majority of the issues. IMO this is something that should be signaled in edid, but it's usually fine to ask the user or default to 1knits.

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              • #47
                I'm really glad they're working together on this to hopefully come up with agreed upon standards. I'd love to use Linux on my desktop but it's just not there yet in terms of modern features like HDR and VRR support. I was surprised to learn that Wayland has no standard way of allowing applications to switch refresh rate, resolution, etc. Unless the different compositors create a standard API for games, video players, etc. to tell the environment they need 24Hz or HDR/SDR, Linux will never be suitable for gaming or HTPC use.

                (Granted, very few applications on Windows use HDR/SDR switching correctly. Kodi, Jriver Media Center and Doom Eternal are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.)
                Last edited by Theriverlethe; 19 February 2024, 08:10 PM.

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
                  I don't know what you said, but it's OK. I can see how any talk of a CoC can be taken wrong, especially on Phoronix where we're allowed to voice our out-there thoughts about subjects.
                  Thanks for understanding!

                  Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
                  The people I know that aren't good people, a CoC isn't going to make them suddenly become a better person. They're the kind of people who see violating a CoC in that manner as a badge of honor and will act like the punishment to their bigotry makes them a First Amendment, Freedom of Speech, Champion...which is funny because this is happening in Spain and I'd love to see someone go off about 1A in not-America. Granted, I'd be surprised if any of them even knew WTF a Linux even was to manage to make it to an HDR event in Spain. Big-headed people like them are why airports have "Foreigners and Americans This Way" signs.
                  I don't think the CoC is meant to make bad people into good people. It's meant more-so to tell contributors what a community's stance is on certain things so they feel assured that the project will stand up for them if and when they get harassed by the aforementioned bad people. There are people who contribute to open source projects who get a significant amount of abuse outside of open source and participating in open source projects can put a larger target on them so they need some level of protection.


                  Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post

                  I'd like to think that us Linux users are better than that. Regardless of our backgrounds, we all have a respect for FOSS, openness, cooperation, and participation and I'd like to think that those ideals would expand into us also having tolerance, acceptance, and kindness.

                  Thoughts and assumptions. Silly me
                  I wish that were the case, too, but I've seen so much contempt to developers both on these forums and elsewhere. I know Georges Stavracas said his daughter received death threats from Linux users.

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post

                    Modern Linux or back in the Golden Era of Linux desktops when we had Compiz, Emerald, etc? Because if it's back in the day when 1080p was the highest resolution ever, before GTK3, when we had all those spiffy desktop effects with X11 compositors, and we're limiting it to using a single monitor, they'd be sold on old-school Linux. It's modern Linux, X11 or Wayland, that just isn't as good as it used to be. Make UIs Great Again.

                    MUGA

                    Build That Firewall
                    Even though I've only been properly using Linux since 2020, my earliest experience with Linux was in maybe 2005 when I messed with a live ISO of Ubuntu. I wanna say it was Dapper Drake or Intrepid Ibex? Anyway I'm just saying I've been some what aware of what's been going on in the Linux world for awhile and I remember seeing videos of Linux desktops with transparency, wobble effects, virtual desktop on a cube, windows burning away, and stuff and I definitely thought it was cool but even when I was 18, some of it seemed kind of excessive. These days I think people would find those effects kind of cute but also way too campy and impractical.

                    Originally posted by Noitatsidem View Post
                    Back when you couldn't get a linux desktop without tearing too - that was indeed an instant turn off for many when it came to linux.

                    That's more along the lines of stuff that I was thinking. I know a lot of people that use multiple displays and all the tearing, the lack of multi-DPI scaling, the inability to have mismatched frame rates, etc, would immediately turn them off. I can only imagine what they would think if they tried running a game that changes their desktop gamma settings and changes their resolution. Those things just feel hacky and archaic now.
                    Last edited by Myownfriend; 20 February 2024, 01:42 AM.

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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Noitatsidem View Post

                      Back when you couldn't get a linux desktop without tearing too - that was indeed an instant turn off for many when it came to linux.
                      Actually, Compiz did have an OpenGL vsync option that would prevent tearing. Back in my "every frame is perfect" phase I ran it on my EEE 701 for that reason.

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