Asahi Linux To Users: Please Stop Using X.Org

[kpedersen]

Maybe do some homework before going guns blazing with a strong opinion built on weak facts?

Here is an incomplete list of issues with xorg on asahi https://social.treehouse.systems/@ma...66643645165030

Indeed. Asahi is still pre-beta and full of bugs. Is this list of breakages somehow meant to be evidence for why people shouldn't use Xorg? Come on!

Plus, what is this nonsense:

Apple Silicon was designed for macOS, and guess what Linux display server design is fundamentally quite similar to the macOS compositor? Wayland. It shouldn't be any surprise it works better

As someone who writes a lot of libdrm modesetting code; whether this is a modesetting driver for Xorg, a modesetting "backend" for Weston, wl_roots or bare metal, the code is almost identical at this framebuffer level. The higher layers have absolutely zero bearing on this.

i.e:

https://github.com/openbsd/xenocara/tree/master/xserver/hw/xfree86/drivers/modesetting

https://github.com/swaywm/wlroots/tree/master/backend/drm

[kpedersen]

Who's trying to undermine Xorg and how are they doing that? Not wanting to develop for Xorg and deliberately undermining Xorg are two completely different scenarios.

Not wanting to develop for Xorg and blanket telling users to stop using Xorg makes them a bunch of weasels.

Or are you saying that this article is wrong? I have highlighted the sleazy parts (read: lies) for you:

Distributions and major desktop environments are already dropping Xorg support. It's pointless to try to support it well today on a new platform.

Yes, not every random app and feature you use on Xorg will have a Wayland equivalent. Deal with it. The major players in desktop Linux have decided it's time to move on from Xorg, and if you want to go against the tide you're on your own

This is so full of FUD that it is like Steve Ballmer himself has written it. Just the same old nonsense from the Wayland camp. They should just be honest and say:

We don't have enough manpower to support both X11 and Wayland1 so Asahi Linux will be buggy with the former. No ETA for a fix

[akira128]

You think Apple's aarch64 is similar to i.e Broadcom's? It isn't. In the world of arm, this distinction is required. Compare this to Intel where i.e Apple can't create their own flavour. I would have thought everyone on these forums knew that...

What distinction needs to be made? I'm simply asking whether it's relevant to label these chips as proprietary, when every arm chip ever produced is proprietary.

The apple chips obviously adhere to the ARMv8-A architecture specification right? Otherwise, they wouldn't be compatible with Linux.

[TiCPU]

Very strong words, have you by any chance seen the number and quality of the discussions on the wayland protocols issue tracker? Or the kernel patches and designs that the wayland team has had hands in designing? Me thinks not.

No, that's right. It is from a user perspective, I do not follow X11, X.org or Wayland development closely as I'm not very knowledgeable in graphical system development.

I do however give Wayland a spin once in a while to see if my issues have been resolved and understand the need for a replacement, but for my present use-case, not even X over network is supported and I use it pretty heavily with X410 on Windows since I use a Windows VM for some virtual reality applications but still want native access to my host. So there are many features that prevent me from switching myself.

[akira128]

Indeed. Asahi is still pre-beta and full of bugs. Is this list of breakages somehow meant to be evidence for why people shouldn't use Xorg? Come on!

I still use Xorg -- and I don't have an issue with the devs listing the current issues with Xorg + Asahi Linux. Why would I?
It's better to be upfront and honest about it.
I don't understand what your stance is -- do you think they should simply not publish that information?

[akira128]

I get why you are getting frustrated, it's like wrestling with a slime. But maybe don't point an overly vocal critic at the people he has no intention of understanding...

Yeah, it's funny how people claim "to be looking for answers" -- when in reality they just want to voice their own emotionally-charged irrational + intellectually-vacuous opinion.

[Mahboi]

And 2000000000000000000 denialists cried out in rage, and slammed their keyboards before starting to furiously type...

[kpedersen]

I still use Xorg -- and I don't have an issue with the devs listing the current issues with Xorg + Asahi Linux. Why would I?
It's better to be upfront and honest about it.
I don't understand what your stance is -- do you think they should simply not publish that information?

As mentioned, they should be honest, list the bugs and even state that they have no interest in fixing the bugs required to make Xorg work well.

However what they are doing is instead trying to undermine Xorg as an excuse for their limitations. The following is a summary of what their weasel words are saying.

Making our stuff work on Xorg is hard but it is "old" and "LeGaCY!" so no-one should use it anyway

Yes, supporting xorg *and* wayland is hard. You do probably need to make a choice in small projects with limited manpower. But what they are doing is spreading FUD (outright lies) rather than clear technical information. They are not being honest.

[akira128]

Not wanting to develop for Xorg and blanket telling users to stop using Xorg makes them a bunch of weasels.

Or are you saying that this article is wrong? I have highlighted the sleazy parts (read: lies) for you:


This is so full of FUD that it is like Steve Ballmer himself has written it. Just the same old nonsense from the Wayland camp. They should just be honest and say:

Ok, so the gist of that is that the Hector doesn't want to dedicate any effort into resolving any issues with Xorg. That's his choice right?
He's an independent developer and it's his choice and his right to decide what he wants to work on.
And just to clarify, that does not meet the threshold for undermining Xorg.
I mean He's not actively working against Xorg, he's just leaving it alone.
So do you think you have the right to tell Hector what he should be focusing + working on!?
To me that is the height of user entitlement -- that you feel you have the right to tell someone what to do....it's insane.
Xorg it's an open source project. No one is actively preventing anyone from developing for it. It's not Hector's weight to bear.

[rogerx]

Doesn't matter if you talk about it. I want this feature that they don't find necessary.

I don't give a fuck if they think it's insecure (hint: it's not). You know what else is actually insecure? Running stuff as root. Let's disable it entirely!!! (that's Wayland ideology). Only allow devs to run stuff as root using signed crap!!! They control our PCs after all!!!

Yup. I see this occurring too. Why I tend to avoid all these new recent (XYZ) projects.