X Window System Turns 38 Years Old

[Hibbelharry]

This analogy is so ass.

It's more like Wayland is a fragile 4x4 car that gets demolished on any impact vs X11 a heavy off-road jeep. Wayland be like "you don't need it, just drive on city roads lol" and then you get stuck in mud. And yes it's a design problem.

Getting stuck (unable to do things) vs being less efficient at that one specific task? Who gives a fuck about the latter.

Well, i've gotten stuck on xorg so many times, I can't agree. Just try plugging a HDMI plug into your notebook trying to do a presentation with the presentation device having a big difference in size, resolution and scaling. You will see X11 failing to be really usable, you will see it working much better in wayland. There are plenty of other circumstances where X11 just absolutely sucks beyond where one can argue with romantic nostalgia.

[ClosedSource]

Wake me up when Wayland is 38 years old. Maybe I'll switch to it then.

Wayland is a portrayal of how developers care only for their jobs and resumes and how they care very little for users. It also portrays how the Linux desktop community is willing to shoot itself in the foot and crawl around pretending that this is not really the case and that this is all for their own good.
Sure we have xwayland now but the trend is downgrading x11 to lower priority and that is very irresponsible. You should never ever be changing or breaking userspace behavior. The only reason the mobile world gets away with change or app breakage is that people keep breaking their phones. Even Windows still supports a substantial amount of 25 year old applications.

[Hibbelharry]

You should never ever be changing or breaking userspace behavior.

Thats wrong and there are many examples. Going on you mentioned Windows. When windows totally changed it's UI when going from Win 3.11 to Win 95 that had a huge impact on it's success. When doing away the DOS platform going to a NT driven technology, that was a huge impact and made it even more successful. It's also not true that windows kept totally compatible to each and every legacy standard, there is lots of old software you won't get running on a current gen windows platform.

Sometimes you need to change and get rid of old thinking, even if it kills some current features. There has to be sane reasons but keeping everything in a standstill is no good idea at all.

By the way: In Wayland you're able to run many legacy stuff, too, thanks to XWayland.

[zexelon]

there are people that act like that whenever there is a technical innovation.

* who need cars? horses are just fine and car are dangerous and get stuck in mud.
* who need electricity? candles are good enough, and are not as dangerous as electricity is.
* who need the internet? Faxes are working perfectly, email is clunky!
* who need wayland? there are several case where X11 works out of the box! Just stay with it forever!

Point of interest, a huge number of cars failed before they took over from horses. Even still horses are kept in most military and police services because there are places where cars dont work still on this planet (actually most places... thankfully not many people have a reason to go to those areas).

Wayland is currently a mess. I am sure if you can get it running and are willing to enjoy the pain and suffering of keeping it running its worth while to you. It reminds me of the good old days of like Linux 2.2-2.4 era when getting a system to boot... and then keeping it running was a feat in and of itself. If all you wanted was a LAMP system it was unstoppable... but if you needed something beyond that, good luck!

There are still to many cases where wayland simply wont run... I still check in on it, probably once a month and still cannot get it to run. While I have a rather unique system its all standard X86_64 AMD/Nvidia hardware. Wayland just dumps back to the login prompt every attempt to run with no visible error message... and I cant be bothered to find whatever log file its dumping to as I can simply switch one drop down box and be in X running KDE in less than 10 seconds.

All that to say LONG LIVE THE HORSES.... I think X is going to probably make it to a half century before actually vanishing

[Volta]

Wayland is a portrayal of how developers care only for their jobs and resumes and how they care very little for users. It also portrays how the Linux desktop community is willing to shoot itself in the foot and crawl around pretending that this is not really the case and that this is all for their own good.

What a close minded opinion. I can't imagine how many problems there were with X. Simple switching from full screen application many times led to killing the application. Thanks Gods I don't have to deal with X anymore.

[Volta]

While I have a rather unique system its all standard X86_64 AMD/Nvidia hardware. Wayland just dumps back to the login prompt every attempt to run with no visible error message... and I cant be bothered to find whatever log file its dumping to as I can simply switch one drop down box and be in X running KDE in less than 10 seconds.

Fix your POS nvidia drivers first.

[cynic]

This analogy is so ass.

It's more like Wayland is a fragile 4x4 car that gets demolished on any impact vs X11 a heavy off-road jeep. Wayland be like "you don't need it, just drive on city roads lol" and then you get stuck in mud. And yes it's a design problem.

Getting stuck (unable to do things) vs being less efficient at that one specific task? Who gives a fuck about the latter.

no, your ability to understand analogies is so ass.
until roads were designed for cars, horses were still a better vehicle than car, but it was just a matter of time before things changed.

also, nobody is denying that X11 is working and has been working for a long time but you're unable to see the reality without being polarized on an extreme position ("X11 sucks!1!!111" vs "Wayland sucks!!1!1!" ).

[cynic]

Point of interest, a huge number of cars failed before they took over from horses. Even still horses are kept in most military and police services because there are places where cars dont work still on this planet (actually most places... thankfully not many people have a reason to go to those areas).

Wayland is currently a mess. I am sure if you can get it running and are willing to enjoy the pain and suffering of keeping it running its worth while to you. It reminds me of the good old days of like Linux 2.2-2.4 era when getting a system to boot... and then keeping it running was a feat in and of itself. If all you wanted was a LAMP system it was unstoppable... but if you needed something beyond that, good luck!

There are still to many cases where wayland simply wont run... I still check in on it, probably once a month and still cannot get it to run. While I have a rather unique system its all standard X86_64 AMD/Nvidia hardware. Wayland just dumps back to the login prompt every attempt to run with no visible error message... and I cant be bothered to find whatever log file its dumping to as I can simply switch one drop down box and be in X running KDE in less than 10 seconds.

All that to say LONG LIVE THE HORSES.... I think X is going to probably make it to a half century before actually vanishing

sure!

there are also people who still relies on MS-DOS for their work and Linux will fail for their job.
there are persons who still uses FAX and those who still write letters.

and those who uses horses.

That is not a good reason to say that Linux, the Internet and cars are bad ideas and the old thing are soooo much better.

[zexelon]

Volta cynic Linux fix your system first... hardware does not need to support software, its always the other way around... heck in this case Nvidia supports Linux... and very well I might add, on Xorg. I dont blame them one bit for not bending over backwards to support wayland, there is literally no business case for them to do so, especially given the animosity towards Nvidia expressed by many of the wayland devs.

I honestly dont actually care, I have a system that works very well in Xorg, and I know that I am actually in the majority of the market, this means that inertia will continue relegate wayland to the corner until they get their situation figured out. Screaming about how terrible Nvidia is has no affect, wanting something doesn't make it real.

Now if AMD would show up at the table in the markets that matter (i.e. GPGPU) things could really change! Also Nvidia is making some very positive strides to open source key pieces of their drivers, it will take time, but its a very interesting direction they are taking now.

So eventually the truth will come out that all the Nvidia haters, just really dont like the color green and that was the problem all along!

[zexelon]

sure!

there are also people who still relies on MS-DOS for their work and Linux will fail for their job.
there are persons who still uses FAX and those who still write letters.

and those who uses horses.

That is not a good reason to say that Linux, the Internet and cars are bad ideas and the old thing are soooo much better.

At no point in my statement did I say that wayland was a bad idea! Its actually a great "idea"! The point was that many great ideas fail in implementation, usually quite a few times, before they are successful. I would not say that wayland is a bad idea, its a bad implementation of a good idea.