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X.Org Could Use More Help Improving & Addressing Its Security

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  • #11
    Originally posted by Monsterovich View Post
    Ubuntu is no longer a good distro, which it was years ago before they invented Unity.
    Doesn't change the fact it's used by a big portion of graphical users and that it's one of the best known by "casual" Linux users.

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    • #12
      Originally posted by Monsterovich View Post
      Ubuntu is no longer a good distro, which it was years ago before they invented Unity.
      Unity grew into a fine desktop. Even better than Gnome and Kde in some ways

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      • #13
        Originally posted by Monsterovich View Post
        go against Unix philosophy
        Xorg goes against Unix philosophy, Linux goes against Unix philosophy, GCC goes against Unix philosophy. Oh, don't even get me started on Emacs. Unix philosophy is entirely non-viable on a modern, internet-enabled computer, it was created in an era where 64kb RAM was considered a lot and the internet didn't even exist. "Unix philosophy" today means "a braindead script that doesn't work with any modern configuration or IPC infrastructure". I don't understand people who beat this dead horse, but if you really fetishize it that much, you're using the wrong operating system with the wrong software ecosystem. Maybe try FreeDOS?

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        • #14
          Originally posted by jonsmirl View Post

          XServer is way more vulnerable than XWayland due to running as root. The largest barrier to Wayland conversion, NVidia, finally appears to be on board. So maybe we will start seeing faster conversion onto native Wayland.
          NVidia isn't the only reason that people aren't converting onto Wayland, it still doesn't work on a lot of setups and/or is missing functionality (i.e. remote desktop).

          Originally posted by You- View Post

          Do we have a score card anywhere?

          All fedora and Red Hat based distros default to Wayland. Ubuntu has started to default to Wayland since 21.04. I dont know about Debian, OpenSuse, Manjaro, Arch etc.
          Afaik none of these are defaulting to Wayland. Manjaro definitely hasn't defaulted to Wayland since they have a large percentage of users using KDE (which wayland still has issues with) and Arch being Arch doesn't really have a "default" but Xorg is still the only option on their simple install script

          TBH until the new NVidia solution that works with EGL is stable, I think its a stupid idea for distros to default to Wayland (at least if you have an Nvidia card) unless you feel like deliberately crippling user experience is a good thing.
          Last edited by mdedetrich; 16 September 2021, 07:05 PM.

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          • #15
            Originally posted by Ironmask View Post

            Xorg goes against Unix philosophy, Linux goes against Unix philosophy, GCC goes against Unix philosophy. Oh, don't even get me started on Emacs. Unix philosophy is entirely non-viable on a modern, internet-enabled computer, it was created in an era where 64kb RAM was considered a lot and the internet didn't even exist. "Unix philosophy" today means "a braindead script that doesn't work with any modern configuration or IPC infrastructure". I don't understand people who beat this dead horse, but if you really fetishize it that much, you're using the wrong operating system with the wrong software ecosystem. Maybe try FreeDOS?

            Well here's where you are getting it wrong. In a ordered list of priorities you have #4 before #2

            1. Is it functional?

            2. Is it practical?

            3. Is it stable?

            4. Is it simple and does it avoid scope-creep? (Unix philosophy here)

            5. Is it secure?

            6. Is the beautiful?

            - Is it open source?

            - Is it "free software"?

            If you optimize The Unix Philosophy without counter-balancing it against other priorities you are putting the cart before the horse and a clusterfuck will ensue -- same thing with the GNU-obsession of putting FOSS as #1 on the list -- You're gonna be running Trisquel GNU/Linux.

            The Apple list of Priorities will list #6 as #1 and end up with absolutely anemic hardware, Windows, Linux, BSD, Servers, Desktops all order this list differently. Servers for example may list #5 & #3 as #1 and #2.

            Discarding the Unix Philosophy because it comes from a time of 64kb ram would be like throwing away Binary "caus it's olde".
            Last edited by ElectricPrism; 16 September 2021, 07:27 PM.

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            • #16
              good opportunity for all those "ha, xorg isn't dead!!!1111" people.
              who am i kidding

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              • #17
                Originally posted by iskra32 View Post
                XWayland
                should be much less vulnerable than real x11 server

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                • #18
                  Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
                  it still doesn't work on a lot of setups and/or is missing functionality (i.e. remote desktop).
                  when will you stop posting bullshit? wayland supports remote desktop just fine
                  Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
                  TBH until the new NVidia solution that works with EGL is stable, I think its a stupid idea for distros to default to Wayland
                  tbh it's a stupid idea for nvidiot to share his views

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                  • #19
                    Originally posted by ElectricPrism View Post
                    5. Is it secure?
                    there's wikipedia page about your list of priorities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_pigs

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                    • #20
                      Despite of Wayland VS XOrg wars, XOrg has everything to lose:
                      - Zero or near zero interest from former developers.
                      - Old codebase that didn't have enough code improving techniques, such as massive refactoring and removing outdated features.
                      - Extremely big codebase for what it does. They should have been extremely focused on code size diet and refactoring.

                      I have no idea if Wayland will replace it. It has good concepts, but it needs too many projects to be equivalent to the XOrg mess in a modern form and more (proper remote desktop as good or better than Microsoft technologies are a tiny example of it).

                      We're in a very bad limbo these days. And XOrg resurgence would require a very titanical effort. Maybe Strong AI is easier than a proper XOrg improvement

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