Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

X.Org DMX Dropped After More Than A Decade Of Crashes

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • mppix
    replied
    Originally posted by libv View Post
    Heh, this turned into a wayland discussion right away. Do the wayland protagonists know that the plan to remove DMX, which is what this article was about, is just as old as wayland itself?
    I don't think there are 'wayland protagonists' except for the Xorg developers.
    Everyone else is just making the new thing work and quite a few see more upsides than downsides.

    Originally posted by libv View Post
    In the meantime, i still enjoy sshing into my build machine, and starting X applications... A redhat friend of mine, one who actually dogfoods, complained just a few weeks ago that ssh + wayland + something either gnome or gtk based equals a local application...
    Are you looking for this:
    waypipe ssh [email protected] weston-flower

    Leave a comment:


  • libv
    replied
    Heh, this turned into a wayland discussion right away. Do the wayland protagonists know that the plan to remove DMX, which is what this article was about, is just as old as wayland itself?

    In the meantime, i still enjoy sshing into my build machine, and starting X applications... A redhat friend of mine, one who actually dogfoods, complained just a few weeks ago that ssh + wayland + something either gnome or gtk based equals a local application...

    Leave a comment:


  • Myownfriend
    replied
    Originally posted by mppix View Post
    This is a bit of a weired situation.
    Xwayland pulls from a subset of Xorg development branches.
    Xwayland also issues releases (Xorg releases have essentially stopped and everyone just patches their version).
    To me Xwayland is a separate X server (even if it lives in the same repo) but this is certainly just one way of looking at it.
    I agree with you. It definitely is a separate X server. I was just pointing out that there is some small but direct link between the two codebases. Outside of importing those headers, it looks like everything else in the XWayland directory is it's own version of stuff that's in it's parent directory, but I can't say that I looked too thoroughly.

    Leave a comment:


  • mppix
    replied
    Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post
    Yes it's separate in that XWayland doesn't need Xorg installed to run, but XWayland is still part of the XServer git and pulls in headers from it's parent directories. But you're right, most things being removed from Xorg shouldn't effect XWayland.
    This is a bit of a weired situation.
    Xwayland pulls from a subset of Xorg development branches.
    Xwayland also issues releases (Xorg releases have essentially stopped and everyone just patches their version).
    To me Xwayland is a separate X server (even if it lives in the same repo) but this is certainly just one way of looking at it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Myownfriend
    replied
    Originally posted by rabcor View Post
    Wasn't XWayland separated from X? As in it's it's own independent project now and not reliant on Xorg even being installed at all?

    So what would the point of removing more stuff be?
    Yes it's separate in that XWayland doesn't need Xorg installed to run, but XWayland is still part of the XServer git and pulls in headers from it's parent directories. But you're right, most things being removed from Xorg shouldn't effect XWayland.

    Originally posted by rabcor View Post
    Besides there are some things X does better than Wayland,
    Like what?

    Leave a comment:


  • rabcor
    replied
    Originally posted by uid313 View Post
    Good with code removal so there can be a smaller code base which is easier to maintain and have less bugs and security vulnerabilities. 👍

    Maybe more stuff can be removed, so that it can only have the stuff that's strictly necessary for XWayland.
    Wasn't XWayland separated from X? As in it's it's own independent project now and not reliant on Xorg even being installed at all?

    So what would the point of removing more stuff be?

    Besides there are some things X does better than Wayland, just because wayland is the preferred default for most desktop users (that aren't bound to X due to nvidia) doesn't mean that X should be shaved down to just serve as an extra for Wayland.

    I think even after we reach the point where XWayland is no longer needed due to most applications supporting Wayland out of the box, there will probably still be a lot of people that prefer X over Wayland, at least for some purposes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Myownfriend
    replied
    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    I didn't want to change the topic too much with that so I was probably quite vague. I can probably summarize it saying something like "The major weakness of Rust, Python, etc is that they are not C". They will forever be wrapping around C libraries (via bindings) and never moving on. It is why they all drag in so many additional dependencies and even have language specific package managers to make up for this flaw (yes, the flaw that they are not C as annoying as that probably sounds).
    That's still very different from what we're talking about with X. Many libraries are written in C or other low-level languages because they're performant, don't require an interpreter to be used, or because other languages didn't exist at the time. These other languages interface with C libraries for compatibility with those libraries but not backwards compatibility. C, despite it's age, is still a current programming language.

    Also C, Python, Rust, etc, are all languages not protocols. XWayland doesn't extend Wayland. There's no X libraries that Wayland might use to gain features. XWayland is strictly an application.

    X isn't a language, it's a protocol. DMX isn't part of the X protocol, it's a utility that's part of one implementation of X server.

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    This is the same with OpenGL. Notice how every graphics system now supports an OpenGL wrapper one way or another? So from this you can probably assume that OpenGL as an API specification will outlive Vulkan, Metal or DirectX because those guys are much more difficult to layer ontop of others (in many ways they are too low-level and flexible).
    Why would it outlive Vulkan? How are you describing the "life" of OpenGL in this example that wouldn't grant Vulkan a similar or longer lifespan?

    And still, these are APIs not protocols.

    Leave a comment:


  • mppix
    replied
    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post

    Well it kind of is a feature. Same with C and OpenGL. Having such a legacy of software and platform support available to them is further contributing to their lifespan like a vicious circle. Yes they may arguably be surpassed in many ways but they also tend to outlive everything in the end.

    Xwayland is quite good evidence of this. You can bet on the successor to Wayland having an Xserver compatibility layer.
    Why are you barking up this tree?
    This is long decided. X11 is done as default. If you needed any demonstration even Nvidia had to give in and support it pretty much the exact way upstream decided: GBM.
    Also, most apps don't even care - they will simply make the transition with their GUI framework.

    It is a bit sad watching you make statements in every Wayland and Xorg thread trying to make X11 important again. Truth is, its faith is sealed. It will be more or less like in Mac - useful for a while and slowly faint away.

    Look at the upsides. I know you care about remote desktop. Wayland will enable remote desktop solutions in ways that X11 never could (at least not with serious workarounds) - for privacy reasons. For example it is now feasible to implement multiuser remote desktop login and potentially every system can act as a remote desktop server..

    Leave a comment:


  • kpedersen
    replied
    Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post
    Well no. C really has nothing to do with what we're talking about though, other than the fact that it's old like X.
    I didn't want to change the topic too much with that so I was probably quite vague. I can probably summarize it saying something like "The major weakness of Rust, Python, etc is that they are not C". They will forever be wrapping around C libraries (via bindings) and never moving on. It is why they all drag in so many additional dependencies and even have language specific package managers to make up for this flaw (yes, the flaw that they are not C as annoying as that probably sounds).

    This is the same with OpenGL. Notice how every graphics system now supports an OpenGL wrapper one way or another? So from this you can probably assume that OpenGL as an API specification will outlive Vulkan, Metal or DirectX because those guys are much more difficult to layer ontop of others (in many ways they are too low-level and flexible).

    Originally posted by tomas View Post

    I'll take that bet. That will be in about 30 years, give or take. At that point I don't forsee any application that will require the X protocol. I'll be an old man by then. 😊
    Lets meet back here then
    Last edited by kpedersen; 08 September 2021, 07:34 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Delgarde
    replied
    Originally posted by sinepgib View Post
    I agree, but I don't think it's temporary. Think about applications, both free and proprietary, that have been long abandoned and won't ever get ported.
    Agreed. Long term, XWayland will exist for the same reasons that X11 servers exist for Windows and for Mac...

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X