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X.Org DMX Dropped After More Than A Decade Of Crashes
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Originally posted by Myownfriend View PostSo you're call Xorg itself a feature of Xorg? Not how that works.
That's like saying that Vulkan lacks features compared to OpenGL because it isn't a direct superset of OpenGL with backwards compatibility. Nobody is trying to build X backwards compatibility into Wayland, nobody wants to, and that's a good thing.
Xwayland is quite good evidence of this. You can bet on the successor to Wayland having an Xserver compatibility layer.Last edited by kpedersen; 07 September 2021, 08:30 PM.
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Originally posted by kpedersen View PostWell it kind of is a feature. Same with C and OpenGL. Having such a legacy of software and platform support available to them is further contributing to their lifespan like a vicious circle. Yes they may arguably be surpassed in many ways but they also tend to outlive everything in the end.
Originally posted by kpedersen View PostXwayland is quite good evidence of this. You can bet on the successor to Wayland having an Xserver compatibility layer.
If we look back at what you originally said...
That's a bit odd. XWayland only exists because there are useful things in X11 that Wayland lacks. If you remove all that, why even bother having XWayland?
Admittedly, I've never even heard of DMX before it's removal, but it sounds like it's a server-side feature/utility that was transparent to the client so it's removal won't effect compatibility at all and wouldn't make sense to add to XWayland. Since XWayland IS a Wayland client, anything that provides similar functionality to DMX in an Wayland session would work just as well for XWayland or Wayland-native clients.
Similarly, Pipewire/xdg-desktop-portal can capture windows and screens in a Wayland session regardless of whether or not the applications are Wayland-native so there's no purpose for XWayland to support tools like xwd (X Window dump).
And really you can apply that to any utility that's part of Xorg.Last edited by Myownfriend; 08 September 2021, 01:23 AM.
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Originally posted by kpedersen View PostYou can bet on the successor to Wayland having an Xserver compatibility layer.
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Originally posted by sinepgib View PostI agree, but I don't think it's temporary. Think about applications, both free and proprietary, that have been long abandoned and won't ever get ported.
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Originally posted by Myownfriend View PostWell no. C really has nothing to do with what we're talking about though, other than the fact that it's old like X.
This is the same with OpenGL. Notice how every graphics system now supports an OpenGL wrapper one way or another? So from this you can probably assume that OpenGL as an API specification will outlive Vulkan, Metal or DirectX because those guys are much more difficult to layer ontop of others (in many ways they are too low-level and flexible).
Originally posted by tomas View Post
I'll take that bet. That will be in about 30 years, give or take. At that point I don't forsee any application that will require the X protocol. I'll be an old man by then. 😊Last edited by kpedersen; 08 September 2021, 07:34 AM.
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Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
Well it kind of is a feature. Same with C and OpenGL. Having such a legacy of software and platform support available to them is further contributing to their lifespan like a vicious circle. Yes they may arguably be surpassed in many ways but they also tend to outlive everything in the end.
Xwayland is quite good evidence of this. You can bet on the successor to Wayland having an Xserver compatibility layer.
This is long decided. X11 is done as default. If you needed any demonstration even Nvidia had to give in and support it pretty much the exact way upstream decided: GBM.
Also, most apps don't even care - they will simply make the transition with their GUI framework.
It is a bit sad watching you make statements in every Wayland and Xorg thread trying to make X11 important again. Truth is, its faith is sealed. It will be more or less like in Mac - useful for a while and slowly faint away.
Look at the upsides. I know you care about remote desktop. Wayland will enable remote desktop solutions in ways that X11 never could (at least not with serious workarounds) - for privacy reasons. For example it is now feasible to implement multiuser remote desktop login and potentially every system can act as a remote desktop server..
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Originally posted by kpedersen View PostI didn't want to change the topic too much with that so I was probably quite vague. I can probably summarize it saying something like "The major weakness of Rust, Python, etc is that they are not C". They will forever be wrapping around C libraries (via bindings) and never moving on. It is why they all drag in so many additional dependencies and even have language specific package managers to make up for this flaw (yes, the flaw that they are not C as annoying as that probably sounds).
Also C, Python, Rust, etc, are all languages not protocols. XWayland doesn't extend Wayland. There's no X libraries that Wayland might use to gain features. XWayland is strictly an application.
X isn't a language, it's a protocol. DMX isn't part of the X protocol, it's a utility that's part of one implementation of X server.
Originally posted by kpedersen View PostThis is the same with OpenGL. Notice how every graphics system now supports an OpenGL wrapper one way or another? So from this you can probably assume that OpenGL as an API specification will outlive Vulkan, Metal or DirectX because those guys are much more difficult to layer ontop of others (in many ways they are too low-level and flexible).
And still, these are APIs not protocols.
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Originally posted by uid313 View PostGood with code removal so there can be a smaller code base which is easier to maintain and have less bugs and security vulnerabilities. 👍
Maybe more stuff can be removed, so that it can only have the stuff that's strictly necessary for XWayland.
So what would the point of removing more stuff be?
Besides there are some things X does better than Wayland, just because wayland is the preferred default for most desktop users (that aren't bound to X due to nvidia) doesn't mean that X should be shaved down to just serve as an extra for Wayland.
I think even after we reach the point where XWayland is no longer needed due to most applications supporting Wayland out of the box, there will probably still be a lot of people that prefer X over Wayland, at least for some purposes.
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Originally posted by rabcor View PostWasn't XWayland separated from X? As in it's it's own independent project now and not reliant on Xorg even being installed at all?
So what would the point of removing more stuff be?
Originally posted by rabcor View PostBesides there are some things X does better than Wayland,
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