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  • #11
    BTW, one feature of X that has been missing in wayland is apparently something called "emulated inputs" which I personally never missed, but it is now getting fixed in wayland the proper way by the means of libei:

    http://who-t.blogspot.com/2020/08/li...input.html?m=1

    The following paragraphs from the blog post really says it all:

    "Having a separate extension worked around the issue of detectability and thus any client could spoof input events. Security concerns were addressed with "well, just ifdef out that extension then" which worked great until other applications started using it for input emulation..."

    and

    "Now it's 2020 and we still have an X server that basically allows access to anything and any client to spoof input. This level of security is industry standard for IoT devices but we are trying to be more restrictive than that on your desktop, lest the stuff you type actually matters... "

    and finally this gem

    ​​​​​​"The whole "any to any" is a big thing in X and just shows that in the olden days you could apparently trust, well, apparently anyone"

    😊

    What is great is that this new library for emulating inputs is not even tied to wayland so it can in fact even be used under classic X and thus improve security there as well.
    ​​​​
    tomas
    Senior Member
    Last edited by tomas; 07 September 2021, 11:17 AM.

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    • #12
      Originally posted by tomas View Post

      Such as?
      I would say Xwayland mainly exists as a temporary compatibility solution for applications that has yet been ported to Wayland, mainly proprietary applications using toolkits that is still tied to X. Or what specific features of X applications are you thinking of? The ability for any X application to read the contents and input of any other X application? Perhaps you were thinking of xeyes? I'm afraid it does not work under Xwayland.
      *waits for “apps can't be ported to Wayland because it's just a protocol” responses*

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      • #13
        Originally posted by uid313 View Post

        No, XWayland exists only for backwards compatibility with applications that do not support Wayland.
        So I only care about X and XWayland in order to use legacy applications and games, I am not particularly interested in any specific features of X11.
        The world doesn't revolve around you. There are quite a few persons who *do* care about X11 stuff.

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        • #14
          Originally posted by Vistaus View Post

          *waits for “apps can't be ported to Wayland because it's just a protocol” responses*
          And those would be wrong, because you port it to use the protocol. Plus, client libraries exist (although the official one is still short from supporting all desirable features), and you'd port it to it if unwilling to use a toolkit.

          Originally posted by Vistaus View Post
          The world doesn't revolve around you. There are quite a few persons who *do* care about X11 stuff.
          Of course there are, but they can and most likely will keep using X11 instead. Wayland is not meant to be a replacement for every feature in X11 and XWayland is unlikely to extend to reach that because it would defeat some of the purposes of using Wayland in the first place. For example, tomas mentioned the emulated input extension. You want to avoid that on Wayland, so I doubt XWayland will enable that. If you need it, you'll stick to X11. It isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

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          • #15
            Originally posted by tomas View Post

            Such as?
            Well, the last time I tried any type of desktop sharing, I was met with failure across the board. If I remember correctly, they haven't standardized the protocol extension for this.

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            • #16
              Originally posted by sinepgib View Post
              ... tomas mentioned the emulated input extension. You want to avoid that on Wayland, so I doubt XWayland will enable that. If you need it, you'll stick to X11. It isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
              It will in fact be used in Xwayland to support the legacy X emulated input mechanism using the mentioned libei. But in a controlled and secure way unlike the X extension. See the blog post:

              "Turns out we still have a lot of X clients around so somehow we want to be able to use those. Under Wayland, those clients connect to Xwayland which translates X requests to Wayland requests. X clients will use XTest to emulate input which currently goes to where the dodos went. But we can add libei support to Xwayland and connect XTest..."
              tomas
              Senior Member
              Last edited by tomas; 07 September 2021, 11:57 AM.

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              • #17
                Originally posted by tomas View Post

                Such as?
                Every feature in Xorg that supports X11 applications.

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                • #18
                  Originally posted by kpedersen View Post

                  Every feature in Xorg that supports X11 applications.
                  Maybe I was unclear. You said "... useful things in X11 that Wayland lack".

                  What specifically are "those useful things" that you claim wayland lacks?

                  Any example of such a feature would do. Thanks.

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                  • #19
                    Originally posted by tomas View Post

                    Any example of such a feature would do. Thanks.
                    The most obvious is the ability to talk the X11 protocol. All Wayland compositors lack this ability. Thus an Xserver called Xwayland is needed.

                    You can of course state that this was by design. But that won't magically make existing software not talk X11.
                    kpedersen
                    Senior Member
                    Last edited by kpedersen; 07 September 2021, 04:32 PM.

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                    • #20
                      Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
                      Every feature in Xorg that supports X11 applications.
                      So you're call Xorg itself a feature of Xorg? Not how that works.

                      That's like saying that Vulkan lacks features compared to OpenGL because it isn't a direct superset of OpenGL with backwards compatibility. Nobody is trying to build X backwards compatibility into Wayland, nobody wants to, and that's a good thing.

                      Originally posted by Vistaus View Post
                      *waits for “apps can't be ported to Wayland because it's just a protocol” responses*
                      I have feeling you're referring to something I said. I had said that applications don't need to be "ported" to Wayland in the sense that you don't need a separate binary of the application to support Wayland. Tool kits like GTK and Qt take care of all or most of what's needed to get an application running in Wayland and is added as an option backend for that application. As a result, an application may be developed without Wayland in mind and still support Wayland natively. "Porting" tends to be used to describe the work needed to get applications to run on different operating systems or ISAs.

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