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X.Org Looks To Drop DMX After Being Rather Broken For ~14 Years

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  • #21
    Originally posted by Vistaus View Post

    I'm guessing you're from the “if you use Ubuntu/Manjaro/whatever, you're not using Linux because Linux is only a kernel” camp?
    No? I've never heard anybody say that.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post

      Applications aren't "ported" to Wayland.
      While I mostly agree with your sentiment, there are certain things which need to be ported for certain apps or require a different solution alltogether. Most of this will hopefully be fledged out soonish but at the moment, we are basically starting to fracture into different mechanism and methods once again to solve these issues. Think screen capture. Good reason why wayland doesn't allow it but now we just have different protocols in the compositors so I cannot use the screen capture software from gnome on KDE or the other way around. Hopefully, we will just converge on a shared methode/protocol to do stuff like that and be done with it but atm. wayland doesn't seem to be there yet.
      Personally, I cannot wait until I can remove the xserver and just run wayland on my machines, got it to work mostly with xwayland but did not really see the point of using wayland if most of my stuff will just be passed through xwayland anyway.

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      • #23
        Originally posted by sdack View Post
        Not fixing a bug, leaving users for a decade with broken software, then use the broken state as an argument for saying nobody would actively use it, because nobody can actively use it, is demented bull shit by a bunch of people who embrace decay over reason. Please first fix the bug when you obviously have a fix for it. Then make it public and get people back to using it who may have abandoned it, and only then talk about who is able to use it but does not want to use it.
        What a self entitled little sh1t. Considering your deep concern what have you contributed to help mitigate the issue? If there had been a great ground swell, I am sure it would have been looked at. Obviously that didn't happen and nobody even seemed to have noticed so why should any one put any effort into it?

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        • #24
          Originally posted by pininety View Post
          While I mostly agree with your sentiment, there are certain things which need to be ported for certain apps or require a different solution alltogether.
          You're right. There are some applications that do need to rethink of they work because of Wayland. The vast majority do not though.[/QUOTE]

          Originally posted by pininety View Post
          Think screen capture. Good reason why wayland doesn't allow it but now we just have different protocols in the compositors so I cannot use the screen capture software from gnome on KDE or the other way around. Hopefully, we will just converge on a shared methode/protocol to do stuff like that and be done with it but atm. wayland doesn't seem to be there yet.
          I was not aware of any other means of screen capture for Wayland outside of xdg-desktop-portal(GTK and KDE backends) and Pipewire(which uses xdg-desktop-portal). What capture software can you use in one but not that other?

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          • #25
            Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post
            As for the benefits of Wayland, the most obvious ones are the ability to have great DPI scaling and for multi-monitor setups to run at different refresh rates. You know, basic features that people use in 2021. In my setup, I have two 27" monitors, one UHD, one QHD. With Wayland I can have the UHD one set to use 150% scaling so now that monitor still uses it's full resolution but it feels like I have matching monitors. Trying to do the same in an X11 session is awful. The mouse gets scaled down and feels sluggish, some applications scale alright while others scale down and are unreadable, and any monitor that doesn't match the primary monitors refresh rate will just show black.
            In my opinion, multi-monitor setup with different dpi is an anomaly not worth the trouble. Whoever sets up such systems, should suffer the consequences without bothering others. Two different monitors will never be able to give smooth work environment. Colors are different, rendering is different due to different dpi, it just can't work properly.

            I have peculiar customers who use three monitor setup, two large with equal dpi for screen estate, and one with low dpi, so they can run old applications which are not dpi aware, so they can be run in a virtual machine. Not a setup I would choose, but I understand reasons for it.
            But to expect to drag a window from one screen to another, stop halfway and see the window split in half, equal size on different monitors with different physical size and dpi... it is a feature very few people need, it requires too much effort to please a small minority.
            Save the money and buy the monitor in the size you need, or buy several equal monitors and stack them any way you like. But don't mix dpi, it messes up everything, and it will still look bad in the end.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
              wl_roots might evolve into it or some sort of libX11-style API will crop up (not to be confused with Xwayland) so developers can be remotely standard rather than Gtk, Qt, SDL2 all writing their own fragmented Wayland glue.
              Do you mean this? https://wayland.freedesktop.org/docs/html/apb.html

              Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
              this is a fairly popular tactic when a project has been taken over by a corporate entity and they are too scared to tell the community that they only want to focus on monetizable features.
              So, a project is taken over by a corporate entity. The alternative is the community controlling it. If the community were actually active, that simply wouldn't happen. Worst case, the community would have forked over. Why do you think that didn't happen/didn't get traction? Because the community seems to be quite passive, only willing to use, never to actually contribute. My take is until we stop seeing free software as freebie software, we'll get fsck'd over.

              EDIT: besides, if you look at the exchange in the mailing list, the patch didn't get stale due to lack of review. Keith Packard reviewed, suggested a change, the author said it would be applied in the next iteration and such iteration simply didn't happen. So, quality issues in the patch and lack of follow-up. That's not the maintainers' fault :shrug:

              Originally posted by dpeterc View Post
              In my opinion, multi-monitor setup with different dpi is an anomaly not worth the trouble. Whoever sets up such systems, should suffer the consequences without bothering others. Two different monitors will never be able to give smooth work environment. Colors are different, rendering is different due to different dpi, it just can't work properly.
              Your opinion seems quite entitled and from a little bubble, considering you think that's a minority. Quite often external screens will differ from laptops' ones, and that setup is not uncommon in my experience (as in, everyone I worked with does that).
              Last edited by sinepgib; 04 September 2021, 03:18 PM.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by sinepgib View Post
                Your opinion seems quite entitled and from a little bubble, considering you think that's a minority. Quite often external screens will differ from laptops' ones, and that setup is not uncommon in my experience (as in, everyone I worked with does that).
                You can mount winter tires on the left wheel and summer tires on the right wheel of your car. But that does not mean car manufacturers should make changes to the car to accommodate such choices.
                Laptop usage with external monitor is different from dual monitor. You don't use them side by side to expand your workspace. It is tiresome to change focus because of distance difference of the two screens. Usually you plug in a bigger monitor than the laptop, and switch to that. System can adapt to the dpi and resolution of the main monitor. X11 can do this, no need to introduce Wayland for that.

                Since your bubble is so much bigger than mine, on what grounds do you claim that multi monitor with different dpi is a majority use case?

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by dpeterc View Post
                  You can mount winter tires on the left wheel and summer tires on the right wheel of your car. But that does not mean car manufacturers should make changes to the car to accommodate such choices.
                  That's a bad analogy for something that is a valid case.

                  Originally posted by dpeterc View Post
                  Laptop usage with external monitor is different from dual monitor. You don't use them side by side to expand your workspace. It is tiresome to change focus because of distance difference of the two screens. Usually you plug in a bigger monitor than the laptop, and switch to that. System can adapt to the dpi and resolution of the main monitor. X11 can do this, no need to introduce Wayland for that.
                  Yes, you do. I do, my colleagues do, that's really much of the point. I don't care about having a larger monitor if I still can't comfortably have my terminal along with official docs on my browser side by side.
                  Personally I don't care about scaling tho, I'd rather have native resolution in both screens and pay the price of some rough edges.

                  Originally posted by dpeterc View Post
                  Since your bubble is so much bigger than mine, on what grounds do you claim that multi monitor with different dpi is a majority use case?
                  I said it's common, not that it's the majority. I don't think the majority of people use dual monitors at all, the practice itself is quite niche. Now, of the ones that do, it seems to be common enough for people to take it as a reason to use Wayland :shrug:
                  The difference between your bubble and mine is that you say one is a minority. I'm not saying either is.

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by dpeterc View Post
                    In my opinion, multi-monitor setup with different dpi is an anomaly not worth the trouble.
                    That's just dumb. Among multi-monitor setups, having mixed sizes and mixed DPI setups are very common because their secondary monitors is usually them continuing to use their old monitor. This is the first time I've had monitors of the same size and I've never really had two of the same resolution

                    Originally posted by dpeterc View Post
                    Whoever sets up such systems, should suffer the consequences without bothering others.
                    Again, that's really fucking dumb. How is anybody bothering you by having more than one monitor with different sizes? Do you think DPI scaling should only be for tablets or some shit? Do you think that it's uncommon for people to use their TVs as another monitor or a tablet?

                    Originally posted by dpeterc View Post
                    Two different monitors will never be able to give smooth work environment. Colors are different, rendering is different due to different dpi, it just can't work properly.
                    I literally just said that my monitor setup does feel like they're the same resolution because of Wayland's DPI scaling. The color isn't identical but it's close enough after calibration that it's not distracting because I often have different things on each monitor.

                    Originally posted by dpeterc View Post
                    I have peculiar customers who use three monitor setup, two large with equal dpi for screen estate, and one with low dpi, so they can run old applications which are not dpi aware, so they can be run in a virtual machine. Not a setup I would choose, but I understand reasons for it.
                    In my case I have a high resolution one for gaming and interfaces and a lower resolution but more color accurate monitor for color grading. I was actually thinking of getting a 1440p gaming monitor so that they match but then I was finding better prices for UHD monitors with the size and feature set I wanted. On top of that, I have a 4K camera and wanted something that would allow me to watch stuff from it at native resolution. Then I realized that UHD is exactly 50% more resolution along both axes so I decided that I would go with one of them and just use DPI scaling. It's not like everybody buys their monitors at the same time.

                    Originally posted by dpeterc View Post
                    But to expect to drag a window from one screen to another, stop halfway and see the window split in half, equal size on different monitors with different physical size and dpi... it is a feature very few people need, it requires too much effort to please a small minority.
                    And? I guarantee you that it's something that most people with multi-monitor setups with some kind of asymmetry would want. My same setup in Windows(which obviously most people with multi-monitor setups are use) had every window snapping between both resolutions (and momentarily being either really big or really small) and the mouse speed would be consistent between both monitors but their would still be 720 pixels at the shared edge of the UHD monitor where it prevented me from dragging stuff over to my main monitor.

                    Under X11, it worked better than Windows in some ways but in the areas that it failed, it failed far worse and made it unusable. Doing the same thing under Wayland feels nearly perfect to me and it's the best experience I've had with my setup.

                    Originally posted by dpeterc View Post
                    Save the money and buy the monitor in the size you need, or buy several equal monitors and stack them any way you like. But don't mix dpi, it messes up everything, and it will still look bad in the end.
                    It looks fine. Having some weird gate-keepy, "fuck you" attitude toward people that would like the setups they can afford to work as seamlessly as possible just because you wouldn't choose that setup is, again, really dumb.

                    And again, in my case, I saved money going with a higher resolution screen because that's a thing that happens over time. Their always a particular screen size and resolution combination that winds up being the most cost-effective at a particular time.

                    I'll never understand people like you who act that way about people's setups. I also have an Nvidia card that I started using before I switched to Linux. It's not the greatest experience. There are applications that show up as transparent windows to me, but that's my fault right? Fuck me. Nvidia shouldn't even release a GBM driver because I should have to suffer the consequence until I go buy better hardware.

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                    • #30
                      On this note does anyone know when GNOME will stop override display's DPI to 96 dpi? For most modern applications just using correct DPI would have removed the need of applying scaling.

                      I'm pretty sure that KDE enforces DPI as well.

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