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Raspberry Pi Display Driver Patches Updated For [email protected] Support

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  • mangeek
    replied
    Originally posted by arQon View Post

    That sounded very unlikely to me, so I just tried it: less than a second to fully complete, on a mediocre wifi connection. So IDK what your problem is there, but it's not inherent to the Pi.
    Just following up on this, and it turns out that the Pi I was using was suffering from a nasty bug re: DMA that was basically making it run at turtle-like speeds in Ubuntu and Fedora, when I put Raspbian on it, the kernel has workarounds that make browsing bearable for day-to-day use.

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  • arQon
    replied
    Originally posted by hotaru View Post
    the 64-bitness isn't nearly as important as the new instructions and huge increase in the number of registers that aarch64 brings.
    The extra registers are nice, but unless one of those new instructions is a full display stack, it's still not going to help. :P

    In reality, using arm64 on the Pi - which is the topic here, not ARM chips in general - removes access to the mmal video accel layer, so it's a massive step DOWN in performaance, unfortunately.

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  • hotaru
    replied
    Originally posted by arQon View Post
    Of course, the whole "64 bits!!1!" thing is about 95% placebo anyway, but who knows - maybe you'll be the 5%).
    the 64-bitness isn't nearly as important as the new instructions and huge increase in the number of registers that aarch64 brings.

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  • arQon
    replied
    Originally posted by mangeek View Post
    I disagree. The Pi 4 is great for what it is, but it's not powerful enough for casual computing. Even web browsing on it is brutally slow. Just going to 'phoronix.com' taxes six seconds to render the page enough to read, and another seven to finish rendering; on Ethernet.
    That sounded very unlikely to me, so I just tried it: less than a second to fully complete, on a mediocre wifi connection. So IDK what your problem is there, but it's not inherent to the Pi.

    > The CPU speed scores closely to a circa-2008 very low-end Core2 Duo

    Could well be. Other than games though, how much software has meaningfully changed (or emerged) since that was a top-end machine? Typical apps? Exactly the same. Office crap? Exactly the same. Pretty much anything else? Exactly the same.

    Video players have learnt 2 or 3 new codecs, none of which are remotely suitable to being handled on any consumer CPU.
    Browsers have learnt HTML5, but that's about it. (Aside from the usual 7000 pointless trivial extensions to CSS, and various other gimmicks that aren't CPU-intensive).

    You do get a lot less grunt per cycle out of an ARM core than you get with x86, but the Pi is still 6.0 "Total GHz" even with no overclocking. Those "very low-end" C2D parts - which I'll take to mean the E4x00 series rather than the E6x00 parts - were, for example, a dual-core E4300 at 1.8GHz, or 3.6 "Total GHz", in an era where almost nothing was multithreaded (and a quad-core C2D cost *$1000*!).

    So, yeah, I don't see a problem here.

    > I can promise you that the graphics software isn't what's holding it back.

    I'm sure you truly mean that, but your promise means little to me, and even less to OP: it clearly *is* the display stack that's holding the Pi back in the overwhelming majority of cases of *user perception*, because a CPU that's on par with a PC of even more than a decade ago is still more than enough for most people's tasks, and even if CPU-bound loads were e.g. 10% slower, it wouldn't really make any difference. "A little bit longer to complete a non-interactive task" hardly ever actually matters, because the task still completes. OTOH, when the display stack is borked, a video doesn't play "at 90% speed", it just *doesn't play* for any useful definition of the word.

    > What I'd love is for the nthe RPI Foundation to bifurcate the product line so I could get a beefy 'Pi Premium' ARM-based board for $120 or so, and the profit would subsidize the cheaper models.

    It's a nice idea, but I think it's not just impractical but more likely to be actively harmful. Unless someone just happened to be manufacturing *exactly* the right parts already - which they wouldn't be because they'd have no need for the second one - and/or was doing full bring-up on both of them, you'd just be spreading RPF's very limited resources even thinner. All you'd have is two outright disappointing products instead of one iffy one. Then there's the additional cost of a much smaller run on the "premium" part, and so on. Like I say, a nice idea - but not a viable one.

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  • mangeek
    replied
    Originally posted by arQon View Post

    I find it very unlikely that your daughter is doing anything that the Pi doesn't actually have enough *compute* for.
    The *display stack* sucks, which can easily lead to it "feeling slow", but that's not the same thing...
    I disagree. The Pi 4 is great for what it is, but it's not powerful enough for casual computing. Even web browsing on it is brutally slow. Just going to 'phoronix.com' taxes six seconds to render the page enough to read, and another seven to finish rendering; on Ethernet. I'm not going to spend eleven seconds waiting on every 'turn of the page' on the web. That's not video hardware either, the CPU is pegged.

    The CPU speed scores closely to a circa-2008 very low-end Core2 Duo, and about 1/10th the speed of a modern Core i3.

    I love mine, I run four of them, including one that hosts a Minecraft server and another that drives a dashboard display, and I'm keen to see the graphics stack fully developed, but I can promise you that the graphics software isn't what's holding it back.

    What I'd love is for the nthe RPI Foundation to bifurcate the product line so I could get a beefy 'Pi Premium' ARM-based board for $120 or so, and the profit would subsidize the cheaper models.

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  • mangeek
    replied
    Originally posted by AHOY View Post
    ...after they've added MS spyware by default.
    They... added a vendor repo that you can install software from. That's not spyware, that's a convenience. I guarantee they aren't getting much from an occasional 'wget' to a list of packages.

    Leave a comment:


  • arQon
    replied
    Originally posted by Phil995511 View Post
    (snip)
    So: video, video, video, and video.

    > no 64 Bits OS

    Really? I guess mine's running on pixie dust then, since it's definitely NOT on 32-bit...

    (Of course, the whole "64 bits!!1!" thing is about 95% placebo anyway, but who knows - maybe you'll be the 5%).

    > And the OS that is stored on an SD card sounds like a big joke

    Oh, I agree: definitely worth getting upset about. Unless of course it isn't true - which, like your last point, it isn't.

    So, yeah. HTH. Details available via your favorite search engine.

    edit> Seriously though: I get that you're just upset, and I do sympathize. But your anger is misplaced.

    > 28 nm by the RPi Foundation, while it is recommended to be engraved in 16 nm by ARM. All this to make ridiculous savings for the benefit of the RPi Foundation, which therefore provides an off-standard product (ARM) to consumers ;-( So this product will overheat even more at the slightest request for calculation.

    Yes, the Pi runs hotter than I'd like. (pimoroni - https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/a...31116595888211 - makes very functional (-15C) and very attractive heatsinks, though shipping basically doubles the price unless you're in the UK. Amazon etc have Chinese knockoffs if you prefer. Ignore tiny individual heatsinks).

    RPF doesn't make the decisions on how the chips are fabbed: they don't own the foundries, and they don't do the chip design. The Pi4 now sells close to 1M units a month, but started around 500K/mo. You may think that's a lot, but in the semiconductor world it isn't, at all. So they have to buy what are essentially "off the shelf" parts. Those parts are designed for whatever node makes the most sense to (i.e. basically "is cheapest for") the company that actually designed them and is ordering them in the 10s of Ms or more for their *own* purposes. RPF is basically just a hitchhiker. Blame Broadcom.

    16nm is *massively* more expensive than 28nm. You seem to be under the impression that it's just slightly more so. The Pi absolutely could not have been built on 16nm: all you'd have left is a bare PCB with the SoC on it, and that's it.

    Your claim that RPF is somehow profiteering off the node is ridiculously wrong. If anything, RPF should be charging MORE for the Pi than they are, because even just an extra 50c on each unit would give them $6M/yr to hire developers with - and right now, the lack of software development at the kernel and display stack level is what's killing the Pi4's potential.

    The choice of GPU - if you can call Broadcom's POS VideoCore that, which would be generous - is, again, not something RPF has *any* say in. I mean, it's right there in the name: Broadcom. RPF only gets to take or leave the SoC as a whole. IDK what the other options were (though, obviously, none of them would have Broadcom's trash for a GPU), but given the fact that VC6 can do 4K HEVC (which it genuinely can, just not in any "standard" Linux way that's acceptable to a web browser), at the time the Broadcom SoC clearly came out ahead in terms of cost vs performance and capabilities. If you think you're capable of finding something better at the same cost or lower, by all means, impress us all with it and let RPF know.

    Most of the problem is that Broadcom barely contributes to Linux at all (their wifi / network chips, for example, were a nightmare for about a decade), let alone Mesa. It's a shitty company on that front, always has been, and always will be. That puts all the burden on RPF to produce all the drivers needed, all the userspace needed, fight to get it merged upstream, and so on - and contrary to your imaginary vision of Upton diving into a Scrooge McDuck-like swimming pool of gold coins, RPF operates on a shoestring budget and simply doesn't have enough people to do that in anything resembling a timely manner.

    So, now you're better informed, at least. If your rant was simply the result of frustration, hopefully you understand the situation more than before and can either direct your venom where it belongs, if that's what makes you happy; or know where to contribute if you have the skills/time/money/etc.
    If it was simply a case of mis-entitlement, where you thought $35 should get you something equivalent to an Epyc CPU with a 3060 thrown in, I can't help you with that.
    Last edited by arQon; 27 August 2021, 12:52 AM. Reason: typos

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  • gukin
    replied

    Originally posted by Phil995511 View Post

    And the OS that is stored on an SD card sounds like a big joke, it's the least reliable storage solution you can imagine in the medium / long term...

    ;-(
    That's for sure brother, I dug out my C64 a few months ago and the hardware was still working and almost all my floppies were still fully readable. That said, I just love having my whole computer stuffed into the keyboard and you can really impress the chicks with a cute, little pink and white computer. (reference: the Raspberry PI 400)

    I have my R400 hooked up to my 55" 4K monitor but it's "unrewarding" at 4k, I look forward to seeing what they'll be able to do.

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  • AHOY
    replied
    I can't even read rpi news after they've added MS spyware by default. I'm glad I never bought one. What are some better brands and models?

    Leave a comment:


  • leo_sk
    replied
    Originally posted by Rccero View Post

    Are you talking of the HW decoding capabilities of Raspbian or of any distro? I don't remember having any trouble playing 1080p videos in LibreElec...
    Yes, i have not tried libelec, but i could not get good playback in any distro including raspbian and arch. Only thing that performed well was kodi

    Leave a comment:

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