X.Org Server 21.1 Will Aim To Release In The Coming Weeks

[Siuoq]

Oh, poor Wayland fans continue to perpetuate the falsehood. Show me a single person who's been hacked using Xorg "insecurity" "features", I dare you.

If X had any security flaws, how comes that openBSD uses it? Checkmate, waylandists!

[Weasel]

then kill Wayland right now

Would be a dream but it won't happen.

[arokh]

Oh, poor Wayland fans continue to perpetuate the falsehood. Show me a single person who's been hacked using Xorg "insecurity" "features", I dare you.

Show me a single person who's been hacked by Spectre/Meltdown? As if you somehow would know you had been hacked.... X.org being a swiss cheese of security holes is a known fact. Your disbelief in reality has nothing to do with Wayland, you need to see a shrink.

As usual, any X.org/Wayland thread on here is filled with rants from incompetent, paranoid and delusional people. Instead of actually contributing to open source, you lot seem to be content repeating the same misconceptions over and over again.

[tomas]

If X had any security flaws, how comes that openBSD uses it? Checkmate, waylandists!

Ehh, and how is this a proof of anything?
It's not like OpenBSD had any alternative for a graphical system, now did they?
Also claiming that X does not have any security flaws is frankly ridiculous. It does not really matter if some security flaw has been exploited or not (yet). It is perfectly valid to reason about a software design and conclude that it's broken from a security perspective without having to point out a real occurrence of said flaw being exploited (yet). The simple fact that any X application can read the contents (including keyboard input) of any other X application in the same session is enough. There is really nothing more discuss, it's simply a broken design from a security perspective.

[mppix]

Deprecating Xorg could never even begin to happen as long as Nvidia stubbornly refused to properly support Wayland, because like it or not, Nvidia still accounts for the majority (or at least a great many) of Linux users out there. Now that apparently Nvidia has finally seen reason, it's only a matter of time.

The largest user base of Linux + Nvidia cards are supercomputers/compute clusters and cryptominers. Neither of them use a DE.
Gaming on Linux desktops is the minority of the minority (but certainly a loud and stubborn one).
This could change if services like Google stadia would gain traction.. btw. how is that going?

Umm, nope. The whole point of creating Xwayland is for Wayland to maintain backwards compatibility with current X apps, which is what will ultimately (after Wayland itself is ready of course) render bare-metal X unnecessary in the mid/long term and will allow us to retire it for good. Xwayland is a core part of the Wayland stack and is fundamental for the Linux desktop to transition to Wayland; asking to deprecate it as a way to help Wayland is like asking to deprecate Wine/Proton as a way to help Linux gaming.

XWayland _is_ a good idea and key for Wayland adoption. However, it does not encourage/force applications to adopt Wayland directly...
It is also much more important than Wine/Proton. As far as I am concerned you can deprecate Wine/Proton if that means that we get a better integrated and lower latency Win virtualization (similar to parallels/fusion on Mac).

[mdedetrich]

Right, screw this. I've had enough.

At this rate desktop Linux will never ever fully transition to Wayland and developers will simply continue to flog the zombie that is Xorg and the Xserver. Things like VR, HUDs and even newer exciting stuff will simply get grafted onto Xorg like the shitbag that it is. Let's continue to deal with having a kernel driver, a drm driver and an Xorg ddx driver just to draw the desktop instead of having everything done by the drm driver. And while we're at it, let's also continue to enjoy the clusterfuck of device-specific input drivers compared to have everything punted off to a general Wayland protocol extension.

Everyone might as well simply roll back all the efforts to create Wayland compositors and software that actually function properly on Wayland because the Xorg maintainers don't even have the will to stick with their plans of permanently abandoning the Xserver once and for all even after 13 years of Wayland development. If things screen sharing and remote desktop access don't work properly on Wayland, don't bother with wasting effort to address them because "switch back to an Xorg session" is going to be the easy way out.

Ignoring this sensationalist part of this dribble, you can blame this entirely on Wayland development. Wayland chose to push everyone to use their protocol even though historically it didn't even support all the usecases (including the basic ones) that Xorg/X11 does (and there are still some it doesn't support to this day).

So yeah, don't be surprised if people don't transition to a newer software if it doesn't actually fulfill there use cases. I have said it before and I will say it again, marking X11/xorg as "deprecated" or "dead" prematurely is not going to achieve anything, all use cases for Wayland need to be finished/ironed out whether people like it or not.

Thats just reality, deal with it.

At the very minimum, forcing everybody to Wayland will result in a crapton more bug reports and feature requests that will finally get the proper priority and developer attention they deserve instead of rotting away in the buglist.

Microsoft needed only two years to fix most of the crap that came with WDDM 1.0 after they made WDDM the standard display driver model for Windows going forward. Had they allowed XDDM to remain the default and punted WDDM to a lower priority, you can bet WDDM would have taken much, much longer to get itself polished to the state that it was in Windows 7 and 8.

You are missing one big critical difference, WDDM was very buggy (although this was an more of an issue with the drivers particularly the NVidia ones rather than the interface itself) but at least it was feature complete. The last thing a company like Microsoft would do is release new software with less functionality and force everyone to move to it

The problem here isn't just bug reports, its also that Wayland is not feature complete and you can only string people along for so long....

[mppix]

Hell, when Canonical started making noise about dropping 32-bit x86 multiarch support, I started researching what distro to switch to in order to retain compatibility with 32-bit Wine and my 32-bit Humble Bundle games without having to choke down all the usability papercuts of the RPM ecosystem.

I'm sure Canonical would fail if they would loose the 32-bit Humble Bundle games business.
I'm also sure society would get at the brink of collapse if some folks need to try an rpm distribution...
... and society would definitely collapse when these folks find out that Debian still supports 32bit.

Sometimes I wonder if Ubuntu regrets their strategy. They created a distro that can be used by idiots - now they also have to deal with them.

I certainly regret posting in this thread. Lots of fanboyism - very little actual discussion.

[mdedetrich]

I]
On the other hand, developers like those guys are probably thankful, because it gives them a reason to postpone a Wayland version like Sonadow pointed out

Thats not surprising considering that remote functionality on Wayland is not even a real standard so I can understand why a software like AnyDesk wouldn't support it because it would be a massive pain in the ass (this is another problem with Wayland).

Remoting with X11 is ultra easy, every compositor that implements it gets remoting capabilities for free and AnyDesk doesn't need to care if you run i3, gnome KDE etc etc

[mppix]

So yeah, don't be surprised if people don't transition to a newer software if it doesn't actually fulfill there use cases. I have said it before and I will say it again, marking X11/xorg as "deprecated" or "dead" prematurely is not going to achieve anything, all use cases for Wayland need to be finished/ironed out whether people like it or not.

Thats just reality, deal with it.

Hi mdedetrich,
I think you stated similar things in the past.
Can you explain what the missing/to be ironed out 'use cases for Wayland' are?
Thanks!

PS. xorg was declared in 'maintainance' mode by some of its developers - not 'dead' or 'depreciated'.

[mdedetrich]

Hi mdedetrich,
I think you stated similar things in the past.
Can you explain what the missing/to be ironed out 'use cases for Wayland' are?
Thanks!

Well remoting is an obvious one and the problems were already explained in the thread (i.e. its completely non standard and every DE implementing Wayland does it differently). I am still stuck using X11 because of this reason.

There are other historical ones, i.e. copy/paste is one (and this is considered basic functionality).

Even for typical usage (i.e. on my laptop) last time I used Wayland a couple of months ago on my distro KDE, quite a few things were broken. I retry every couple of months to see if its more stable.

PS. xorg was declared in 'maintainance' mode by some of its developers - not 'dead' or 'depreciated'.

Sure but this is nitpicking because in reality what the maintainers label X.org as is irrelevant. If people are still using it because they are forced to, then someone will be forced to maintain it even if its not official hence why the new X.Org server is being released now.