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New X.Org Server Release While Maintaining Separate XWayland Being Discussed

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  • #21
    Originally posted by dekernel View Post
    I'm not sure I can agree with you on that statement since I am now adding this comment via my LXDE desktop session that just seems to always work fine for me. Actually I have been using X for well over 5+ years on my workstation with only one instance where it went into the weeds so personally, I'm just fine and dandy with X.
    ...and I'm commenting from a KDE+X11 session that has had sessions left logged in for months at a time on previous releases. (38 days is my current record since upgrading to Kubuntu 20.04 LTS, because I've been incrementally upgrading old hardware recently.)

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    • #22
      Originally posted by dpeterc View Post
      Could you elaborate? What precisely in X11 is hacky and against the standard? Xorg is against standard? Which standard?
      I don't remember the exact details, but developers like Daniel Stone have mentioned in their talks (I think The Real Story Behind Wayland and X - Daniel Stone (linux.conf.au 2013) is one) about how, earlier in their careers, they'd agonize over how to fix this or that bug or implement this or that feature without breaking compliance, then go and find that every other implementation had settled on breaking the spec in the same way to achieve it.

      (In fact, in that very talk, I believe it's used as context for one of several justifications for Wayland as "we tried to fix these things. It would break the X spec too badly"... another being to show how so much has been moved out of the X server that it's nothing but "terrible, terrible IPC" anymore.)

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      • #23
        Originally posted by arQon View Post
        The wayland devs' refusal to implement anything equivalent - and more tellingly, the attitude behind it - is a big part of why Wayland still isn't ready for primetime in a lot of cases, regardless of how enthusiastic the cheerleading squad is, and how much we all want Wayland to actually BE genuinely usable as a replacement for X. But it just isn't, and it never will be no matter how many times people uninvolved with the development try to puff themselves up by repeating the whole "insecure, old, hacky, mess, etc etc" line.
        Technically, the original promise/goal was that such things would be done through privileged interfaces, along the lines of what Arcan supports IIRC. (eg. something like a special launch procedure where the equivalent to Run As Administrator passes the auth token for the privileged interfaces via stdin or something else suitably secure, like exec-ing the privileged process with a file descriptor passed in to call them via.)

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        • #24
          Originally posted by Alexmitter View Post
          Nope, X11 and specifically X11 via Xorg is such a mess of broken, hacky and against the standard work that something like that would not happen.
          If you would create a fully clean X11 server, it would not run most of the software as those expect quirks of Xorg they did work around with hacky protocol usage.
          And if you would create a X11 server with those quirks, it would just be Xorg again.
          Well, one of the things I said was "pared down"; this is the option where you just delete most of the code, and what's left is the quirky mess that you're looking to emulate. I wonder how much of the X server is actually used by applications that are functioning right now.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by Anvil View Post
            the way i see it, X,Org Server is Dead, no one really wants to keep it alive by making new releases, better off focusing on XWayland rather than a Dead Server
            I don't think anyone is arguing whether or not xorg is dead. we have flogged the horse hard enough its nothing but a pile of flesh now. but unfortunately Wayland isn't ready. or rather the ecosystem isn't ready for us to swap to wayland and be done with it. xwayland workse well enough for most cases but it still isn't good enough. soon though. on KDE wayland I only have a couple gripes left before im ready to swap of sway back to kde. (and I am unsure which ones are due to my mishandling of the setup (I will never wipe my PC lol) and which ones are bonafide kde/wayland issues).

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            • #26
              Originally posted by arQon View Post

              A big part of the reason xrandr is critical though is VMs. The wayland devs' refusal to implement anything equivalent - and more tellingly, the attitude behind it - is a big part of why Wayland still isn't ready for primetime in a lot of cases, regardless of how enthusiastic the cheerleading squad is, and how much we all want Wayland to actually BE genuinely usable as a replacement for X. But it just isn't, and it never will be no matter how many times people uninvolved with the development try to puff themselves up by repeating the whole "insecure, old, hacky, mess, etc etc" line.
              Xrandr isnt magic; it just uses the RANDR extension that was added to the xserver a while back. One of the many many extensions that people would find X11 completely unusable without these days. Back in the day, the DDX driver might have known some magic to get the graphics card to do what it takes, but these days everyone uses a KMS driver, so that functionality just gets handed off to the kernel. So, we can just add that interface to the Wayland compositor-- or a common library that compositors use. Like wlroots. And a userspace tool similar to xrandr, say called wlr-randr.... which already exists.

              Your post almost seems to assume that X11 came out fully formed, and magicaly possessed all of the 20+ extensions that were added over decades... Wayland based desktops (and the other display applications it is used for) can achieve whatever is required or desired in the fullness of time, and meanwhile Xorgs X11 server continues to exist and is open source. Just do not expect the people who wrote all those X11 extensions to do any more serious work on it, outside of Xwayland, because they all threw up their hands a while back and said enough is enough! But who knows, if there is a commercial demand for it, someone might get paid to keep maintaining Xorg in the future...

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              • #27
                Originally posted by arQon View Post
                A big part of the reason xrandr is critical though is VMs.
                xrandr is quite common way to break your desktop. This does not matter if you are a vm or native desktop.
                https://askubuntu.com/questions/2993...ming-from-wine
                This fault here that turned up in 2012 there are still open wine project bugs over it and valve has some bugs open about it for Linux games.

                Why is xrandr not a default feature of Wayland dig back before 2008 if you like and find the 2012 fault appearing before this. Yes you are running in X screen mode you change to Y screen mode and the GPU goes sorry will not now allow you to change back to X screen mode. Cause Y screen mode need less memory than X screen the GPU has its memory allocated and there is now not the memory in the GPU to allocate to active X screen mode. Please note this allocation failure can happen when the GPU total memory is like 90 percent not used. Xrandr is a do you fell lucky punk operation same with any GPU resolution change operation. So we need to reduce the number of times we do resolution change.

                This is the thing scaling application output up or down in the GPU does not have you messing with the output memory in the GPU and is less likely to fail. Yes the resolution change can fail catastrophically causing a GPU reset and a complete memory flush of the GPU this can chain on to a stack of application failing A failure to scale does not result in a GPU reset just the application being scaled does not run.

                Originally posted by arQon View Post
                The wayland devs' refusal to implement anything equivalent
                This is you presuming a feature of X11 makes sense. You have totally ignored the existing defects of xrandr. Wayland was being design to scaling application to screen to change resolution output due to the know problems caused by really changing resolution of output. Wayland developers have not said that wayland compistors cannot provide means to change resolution at runtime. Writing the means to change resolution into the standard a mandatory command line feature to be exposed is a bad idea due to the known defects. For wlroots based wayland compositor you do have wlr-randr that is optional to be installed and the protocol to allow this to be allowed to be disabled by the compositor. Even party behind wlroot has seen the problem here at times you cannot be changing resolution particular in some GPU multi times back to back without bad things happening.

                There are many things about X11 that people go demanding equivalent to that when you look a bit closer we need to be rid of that feature in the way it done because its a problem causing desktop stability problems. xrandr is one of those things we need to get rid of that command line tool we need to get rid of applications means to directly change resolution due to the problems that exist.

                Limiting resolution change to the wayland compositor alone make sense:
                1) so you are not doing resolution change quickly that results in GPU screw up.
                2) so you are not doing resolution changes quickly that result in a monitor going black screen of jammed.

                Yes a lot of people using xrandr a lot would have not have been linking how many desktop failures they have been having to their xrandr changes. Because like it or not xrandr is a buggy solution. The bug cannot be fixed a software level as the bug is hardware level in GPU's and Monitors. The mitigation against bug is reduce the number of resolution changes you need to-do.

                Please note its not just Linux either. Windows users have more frequently running in to the black screen of jammed on monitor and the GPU doing I am not changing back until I reboot my machine(what windows users class as normal solution to strange behaviour) .

                arQon now serous-ally this is the problem space. Knowing this now does xrandr still make sense to allow any application to perform thinking it can bring your complete desktop to a grinding halt. This is not software bring you to grinding halt this is hardware bring you to grinding halt.

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                • #28
                  It's 2021, 4K displays have been affordable since a couple of years now and XWayland still doesn't even have HiDPI support?

                  When do they finally merge https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/...e_requests/432 ?

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Quackdoc View Post

                    I don't think anyone is arguing whether or not xorg is dead. we have flogged the horse hard enough its nothing but a pile of flesh now. but unfortunately Wayland isn't ready. or rather the ecosystem isn't ready for us to swap to wayland and be done with it. xwayland workse well enough for most cases but it still isn't good enough. soon though. on KDE wayland I only have a couple gripes left before im ready to swap of sway back to kde. (and I am unsure which ones are due to my mishandling of the setup (I will never wipe my PC lol) and which ones are bonafide kde/wayland issues).
                    Wayland is ready, its just no good on old out of date hardware., dont expect a New Xorg Server release as Michael always hopes for in his stories. Nvidia an i dunno about AMD have released prop drivers to work on wayland/xwayland that being 470.xx drivers,

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Anvil View Post
                      the way i see it, X,Org Server is Dead, no one really wants to keep it alive by making new releases, better off focusing on XWayland rather than a Dead Server
                      It's not. Also software doesn't work the way you seem to think it does.

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