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HDMI Forum Closing Public Specification Access Is Hurting Open-Source GPU Drivers

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  • #81
    Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post

    good luck getting a 30m cable that can support the full 48 Gbps, it will probably need a repeater of some sought.
    There exists several 30m HDMI cables rated for 48Gbps, they all cost around $300 here but they do exist.

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    • #82
      HDMI is BROKEN
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTVqmhvfmc0

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      • #83
        Originally posted by ezekrb5 View Post
        and many people get mad at DP saying it's garbage because none of their devices have it, even on this thread there are people saying HDMI is the best choice because their TVs are HDMI...
        What people are saying is actually more pragmatic. Since TVs, AV receivers, older PC monitors (still worth 10 more years), projectors, BR players, etc... all have HDMI ports (ARC is amazing for Netflix) and not one single DP or very few, then how and why would it die? Doesn't mean that DP is garbage, just that HDMI is there to stay and you need to deal with it.

        Originally posted by F.Ultra View Post

        One major advantage to HDMI is that the maximum cable length is 30m instead of just 3m, something that of course is not relevant for most PC setups on the other hand...
        Another moot reason for the HDMI-to-die advocates. European Football Championships are coming up in 5 months. I need an 8m long (i.e. 10m) hdmi cable to display the games on my projector.

        Originally posted by cb88 View Post
        The answer is obvious... let HDMI die already.
        Or... let the 5 years old grow and stop whining.

        Originally posted by xcom View Post
        For PC monitors HDMI shouldn't be needed. Normal DVI or displayport should be enough.
        Wrong. Non-pro laptops still are mostly going for HDMI (or USB-C to DP, sure). For dual monitor work, it's still necessary.
        Actually, my current pro laptop doesn't even have a DP either, although my previous one had.

        And lots of people still use laptops from before USB-C anyway without a good reason to upgrade. Or 2K monitors without DP that they intend to keep for another long while.

        Originally posted by ix900 View Post

        Its been done a long time before hdmi came around and you can do it today as well without it. But, once hdmi came around I would never go back. Its much easier and comes free with the gpu and sometimes the motherboard and is only one cable.

        All I have to say here is that people who expect everything to be open source, can't have everything. Life doesn't work that way.
        Do you mean a separate cable for either jack or optical and VGA or DVI? Sure. But who would want to go back to a lesser quality AND practicality in their right mind?

        Originally posted by gukin View Post
        I was really lucky because it all works pretty well, except for the chipmunks with the RX570 at 4K, and as nice as 4K is for screen real estate trying to watch videos or anything else at 30Hz is pretty annoying.

        I'd better pay more attention since "video just working" isn't a guarantee.

        Wayland doesn't have any issues with 3840x2160 @ 60FPS other than the well known Wayland issues.

        It's better to be lucky than smart.
        That's the thing, HDMI works pretty well if you pay enough attention to your devices version (especially for 4K60, ARC, eARC...) and take the time to check the quality and version of your cables before buying. A lot of cheap chinese crap on Amazon don't have the bandwidth they advertise. Better be cautious and not too stingy on this particular product.

        Doesn't mean DP is crap or garbage at all. I'm using it just as fine. But people can't just say "let HDMI die" (like 5 years old) and overlook the dozen of reasons why it's not gonna happen and why lots of people have devices that they intend to keep for a while that only work with HDMI, and do so very well.

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        • #84
          Originally posted by F.Ultra View Post
          There exists several 30m HDMI cables rated for 48Gbps, they all cost around $300 here but they do exist.
          Reality I normally don't use them they are too expensive too restrictive on installation. (I am a cabler).

          https://www.aten.com/au/en/products/...enders/ve901r/
          At $300 for 30m hdmi or display port its cheaper and more stable to use the extenders with Cat6. I can make cables up to 40 meters long on Cat6 using the cheaper extenders with display port or hdmi so 10 meters longer for the same dollars and it works way more dependable. Not all hdmi output support 30m cables directly either so using extender at that length you are not having this issue as the extender is a powered boost.

          Please note the HDMI standard only rates for 19M without extenders. There are 30m cables on the market most of them do depend on your devices operating outside HDMI specifications at both ends. 30meter hdmi cables are not worth the headache having to explain to person that X item they have will work and Y item will not. Just put in extenders then what ever device they hook up works..

          Originally posted by Mez' View Post
          Another moot reason for the HDMI-to-die advocates. European Football Championships are coming up in 5 months. I need an 8m long (i.e. 10m) hdmi cable to display the games on my projector.
          You need to really ask the question do you really need a 8m long(ie 10m) hdmi cable. Would running a bundle of generic cat6/7 instead be better long term choice. There are tones of examples of different HDMI items not working over 10m length but work perfectly fine when you do the same length with over cat6 extenders. This is the due to actively powered in the extenders so if a device does not put out enough signal strength it boosts.

          If I have a 500 dollar budget with cat6/7 you can take HDMI and Display port out over 100 meters with extenders.

          I had a 10 meter HDMI cable from a computer to monitor had no end of issues until I put a extender in it place. Fun one on motherboard HDMI can be quite under powered the cable I was using was 100 percent insider HDMI specification the motherboard HDMI output was not..

          Really I have had to fix enough cases where people have got long HDMI cables and they don't work with the devices they have. Lot of ways the Display port recommend 2m max length is really the same real world limit with HDMI if you expect everything to work without boosters or extenders.

          Its hard to hear right that over a 2m cable length with HDMI that is not done by extender is really a do you fell lucky punk thing.

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          • #85
            I still don't understand this article. If HDMI was open till version 1.3, then why it's a problem for AMD to support Freesync on HDMI 1.3 ?

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            • #86
              Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

              Reality I normally don't use them they are too expensive too restrictive on installation. (I am a cabler).

              https://www.aten.com/au/en/products/...enders/ve901r/
              At $300 for 30m hdmi or display port its cheaper and more stable to use the extenders with Cat6. I can make cables up to 40 meters long on Cat6 using the cheaper extenders with display port or hdmi so 10 meters longer for the same dollars and it works way more dependable. Not all hdmi output support 30m cables directly either so using extender at that length you are not having this issue as the extender is a powered boost.

              Please note the HDMI standard only rates for 19M without extenders. There are 30m cables on the market most of them do depend on your devices operating outside HDMI specifications at both ends. 30meter hdmi cables are not worth the headache having to explain to person that X item they have will work and Y item will not. Just put in extenders then what ever device they hook up works..



              You need to really ask the question do you really need a 8m long(ie 10m) hdmi cable. Would running a bundle of generic cat6/7 instead be better long term choice. There are tones of examples of different HDMI items not working over 10m length but work perfectly fine when you do the same length with over cat6 extenders. This is the due to actively powered in the extenders so if a device does not put out enough signal strength it boosts.

              If I have a 500 dollar budget with cat6/7 you can take HDMI and Display port out over 100 meters with extenders.

              I had a 10 meter HDMI cable from a computer to monitor had no end of issues until I put a extender in it place. Fun one on motherboard HDMI can be quite under powered the cable I was using was 100 percent insider HDMI specification the motherboard HDMI output was not..

              Really I have had to fix enough cases where people have got long HDMI cables and they don't work with the devices they have. Lot of ways the Display port recommend 2m max length is really the same real world limit with HDMI if you expect everything to work without boosters or extenders.

              Its hard to hear right that over a 2m cable length with HDMI that is not done by extender is really a do you fell lucky punk thing.
              Newest HDMI cables use AOC (Active Optical Cable) so you can have 100m or longer without extenders and without signal loss, however since that is going outside the actual protocol/standard anyway the same probably also exists for DP cables (or perhaps not since DP is mostly used for short runs and HDMI is used for media setups where there sometimes can be very long setups).

              Then of course comes the same question that you raise, use a long expensive cable or multiple cheaper ones with extenders. That said over here a HDMI<->cat6 extender that can reach 100M costs twice as much as the 100m HDMI cable so the answer is not so black and white. Also it's usually easier to upgrade a single cable when a new standard comes than to also replace both cables and extenders (and sometimes now, all depends on the actual installation).

              But AFAIK 30m is from the actual HDMI standard.

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              • #87
                Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

                You need to really ask the question do you really need a 8m long(ie 10m) hdmi cable. Would running a bundle of generic cat6/7 instead be better long term choice. There are tones of examples of different HDMI items not working over 10m length but work perfectly fine when you do the same length with over cat6 extenders. This is the due to actively powered in the extenders so if a device does not put out enough signal strength it boosts.

                If I have a 500 dollar budget with cat6/7 you can take HDMI and Display port out over 100 meters with extenders.

                I had a 10 meter HDMI cable from a computer to monitor had no end of issues until I put a extender in it place. Fun one on motherboard HDMI can be quite under powered the cable I was using was 100 percent insider HDMI specification the motherboard HDMI output was not..

                Really I have had to fix enough cases where people have got long HDMI cables and they don't work with the devices they have. Lot of ways the Display port recommend 2m max length is really the same real world limit with HDMI if you expect everything to work without boosters or extenders.

                Its hard to hear right that over a 2m cable length with HDMI that is not done by extender is really a do you fell lucky punk thing.
                I don't see the point of this. There's still a cable running, and I would have to buy 2 intermediate devices that cost more than my HDMI cable and eat more space.
                A 10m HDMI cable for my 2K projector (even if it was 4K60) is enough if you check carefully what you buy and are not stingy. Being thrifty means paying more eventually with HDMI cables (this is true for many things but even more for HDMI cables), not even mentioning the various issues.
                Mine has been working seamlessly for 4 years now and I paid around 15€ for it after a thorough search on what I needed.

                Why would I want to complicate my life for little to no benefit?

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                • #88
                  Originally posted by F.Ultra View Post
                  Newest HDMI cables use AOC (Active Optical Cable) so you can have 100m or longer without extenders and without signal loss, however since that is going outside the actual protocol/standard anyway the same probably also exists for DP cables (or perhaps not since DP is mostly used for short runs and HDMI is used for media setups where there sometimes can be very long setups).
                  https://www.amazon.com.au/Displaypor.../dp/B07TC896NS
                  AOC cables do exist for display port as well. Fun point they are in fact part of the display port 1.1 standard and above. Due to it being part of the standard power with display port is provided from both ends so the centre section of a Displayport AOC cable is pure optical no copper.

                  Yes being part of the standard does not mean display-port standard has listed exact list of features a AOC cable must support to be conforming.

                  AOC is really form of extender embedded in cable. Full copper cables 2 meters are about it for sanity yes the HDMI standard says you should be able to do 30m on copper its idealistic. Display port 2 meters is more realistic for copper with how low on power devices providing the signal can be.

                  Yes once you get to AOC cables there is really no difference on what you can do between display port/hdmi.

                  https://www.gefen.com/product/displa...EXT-DP-CP-FM10

                  Yes you are saying a very big miss understanding that display port is only used in short runs when display port used in some insanely long runs(like airports). This is 1km extended display port. Fun point is for most devices it can vampire the 5 volts it needs straight out the display port connectors at both ends.

                  DP basically you want to use long run you go extender of some of some form be this a AOC cable done display port way or display port to cat6.

                  Originally posted by F.Ultra View Post
                  Then of course comes the same question that you raise, use a long expensive cable or multiple cheaper ones with extenders. That said over here a HDMI<->cat6 extender that can reach 100M costs twice as much as the 100m HDMI cable so the answer is not so black and white. Also it's usually easier to upgrade a single cable when a new standard comes than to also replace both cables and extenders (and sometimes now, all depends on the actual installation).
                  There are lot of cases I do where to replace a cable is basically rip out a wall so a cable not lasting is a big problem. HDMI<->cat6 100m vs a 100m HDMI AOC cable does get hard. Yes on one way paying twice and much for the HDMI<->cat6 extender seams like paying too much. AOC cables cannot tolerate the same amount of bend as a cat6 cable can over the long term. Yes a AOC cable in some runs you can end up replacing it 3 to 4 times a year where a cat6 cable in that location is perfectly fine.

                  Some of this is not just upgrade cable when new standard comes it. Its that the deployment works without failure. Being half the price is not a saving if you need 3 to 4 times the number of cables due to failures over the life of deployment.

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                  • #89
                    Originally posted by Mez' View Post
                    I don't see the point of this. There's still a cable running, and I would have to buy 2 intermediate devices that cost more than my HDMI cable and eat more space.
                    A 10m HDMI cable for my 2K projector (even if it was 4K60) is enough if you check carefully what you buy and are not stingy. Being thrifty means paying more eventually with HDMI cables (this is true for many things but even more for HDMI cables), not even mentioning the various issues.
                    Mine has been working seamlessly for 4 years now and I paid around 15€ for it after a thorough search on what I needed.

                    Why would I want to complicate my life for little to no benefit?
                    It depends on the source devices you will be using. I do conference halls and places like that so you get random source devices like HDMI from phones that lucky to have 50cm.

                    The other thing is if you go a 10m HDMI AOC or copper cable HDMI both cannot bend as much as a CAT6/7 cable before failing. The path you can route the cat6/7 cable can be tighter so is less likely to have reliability issues.

                    Yes this is a thrifty question that going a straight HDMI cable instead of considering the CAT6/7 can be a mistake that ends up costing you more money in the long run.

                    Lot of the cases I am fixing people got really creative where they wanted to hide their cables so ended up doing corners way too tight on the cables specification so resulting in regular failures of course those runs are not too tight for cat6/7 in most cases.

                    Basically cables are not just cables.

                    Would running a bundle of generic cat6/7 instead be better long term choice.<< Do note I wrote here long term choice. You do need to check your cable route before you buy your cable. Yes extenders might seam to horrible space takers and costly until you have the problem you run a corner somewhere too tight or cable got pulled.... so you are burning through cables.

                    Choosing the cat6/7 solution is not being thrifty there are reliability things to consider.

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                    • #90
                      Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

                      It depends on the source devices you will be using. I do conference halls and places like that so you get random source devices like HDMI from phones that lucky to have 50cm.

                      The other thing is if you go a 10m HDMI AOC or copper cable HDMI both cannot bend as much as a CAT6/7 cable before failing. The path you can route the cat6/7 cable can be tighter so is less likely to have reliability issues.

                      Yes this is a thrifty question that going a straight HDMI cable instead of considering the CAT6/7 can be a mistake that ends up costing you more money in the long run.

                      Lot of the cases I am fixing people got really creative where they wanted to hide their cables so ended up doing corners way too tight on the cables specification so resulting in regular failures of course those runs are not too tight for cat6/7 in most cases.

                      Basically cables are not just cables.

                      Would running a bundle of generic cat6/7 instead be better long term choice.<< Do note I wrote here long term choice. You do need to check your cable route before you buy your cable. Yes extenders might seam to horrible space takers and costly until you have the problem you run a corner somewhere too tight or cable got pulled.... so you are burning through cables.

                      Choosing the cat6/7 solution is not being thrifty there are reliability things to consider.
                      By being thrifty i meant buying cheap HDMI cables such as Amazonbasics or doubtful chinese brands that advertise HDMI 2.0/2.1 at an abnormaly affordable price (it's probably 1.4). Then you're very likely to run into problems...

                      I agree on the corner bending issue, this can be a problem if you run it from your receiver (under the TV I assume) to a beamer meant to be projected on a distant wall and want to hide it along the way. Fair point.

                      I was only speaking on a home/small gathering (to watch the games) level, conference calls are a different matter. Very few are gonna project their homeworking conf calls on a wall. Which brings us to the professional level. In that case the projector is usually on a dropped ceiling mounted platform and it's all going back into the drop ceiling to a reachable connector for your source via a wall and passing through the floor underneath the conference tables, which is the longest path and absolutely justifies your solution. Especially since paying extra for an extender is just a tiny part of the overall room setup invoice anyway whereas for an individual it's an expense to consider. And the IT involved in thinking the plans out will likely be aware of more specific equipment, contrary to normal people.
                      In my case (at home or to transport easily), the 10m cable was the obvious (and portable) solution and has been working reliably.

                      In a general way, I think average Joes or even cafés/bars/pubs (broadcasting games via a projector for limited special events) most likely have never heard of such extenders and will go for HDMI.

                      Normal people will always go for practicality and cheap rather than complicated and expensive. Keep it simple.
                      They don't care about DP (until they have to), because most of their devices have HDMI and they are not going to replace their newly acquired devices paid big bucks with a 5-10-15 years running expectancy (TVs, AV receivers, projectors, game console, etc...) just because HDMI is no longer open source or because "DP is better" (allegedly).
                      I'm not targeting you, but when I read "Let HDMI die" I feel some kind of disdain for pragmatism and I don't see both feet on the ground. That's why I'm trying to remind them what it's like down here on solid ground.
                      Last edited by Mez'; 07 January 2021, 12:03 PM.

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