Arcan Focuses In On Surpassing Feature Parity With X.Org, Releases Durden 0.6 Desktop

[oiaohm]

You're not listening. The issues that nVidia has on X11 don't inconvenience me. Having to shell out for a new GPU does.

This is you ignoring the problems.

No, that's my brother running Windows 10 with an nVidia RTX card because, as much as he appreciates KDE's UX, he has a career and Linux+AMD can't reliably run applications like Blender in the way he needs.

I run blender. Its one of the reasons why I am using a AMD card under Linux. You have missed that one of the reasons why your brother is using Windows 10 instead of Linux is lack of X11 WM and X11 Compositor stability caused by Nvidia drivers. I do have the odd render that runs for a few months at a time so that screwing up in 2 weeks is absolutely not tolerable in my workflow 20% slower not having that problem turns out to be worth it .

The reality is Nvidia is not good with Linux even using X11 for a lot of productivity tasks due to the stability problems coming from the Nvidia drivers. Yes stability problems that people like you ssokolow are miss placing.

I'm listening... I just won't care until my current nVidia GPU dies and forces me to replace it unless you're paying me to replace it earlier.

The reality is for people like me or your brother the stablity problems of the Nvidia drivers under Linux are not a tolerable problem. Your options is either run Windows or shell out for AMD gpu. Yes when you shell out for a AMD gpu put up with the limitations in exchange for stablity. Think about it something been rendering for 3 weeks and it goofs up at that point due to Nvidia issue and you have to start over. 20% longer seams bad until you have like 2 to 3 of those goofs in a row that is basically 200%-300% longer instead.

Its really simple to miss for a lot productivity under Linux Nvidia is not a viable option due to its broken drivers. The stuff you are saying is fine is in fact a big problem.

[ssokolow]

...

I don't let myself get emotionally invested in these things and I stopped caring a reply or two ago, so I'm just going to let you have the last word while I go back to getting things done.

[JackLilhammers]

oiaohm You're definitely right on the Linux side of things, but the ground is the PC market, not just Linux

[oiaohm]

I don't let myself get emotionally invested in these things and I stopped caring a reply or two ago, so I'm just going to let you have the last word while I go back to getting things done.

The reality is those of us who are wanting to get serous things done with Linux care about the stability problems.

oiaohm You're definitely right on the Linux side of things, but the ground is the PC market, not just Linux

That is also a mistake. People have had to replace printers and other external accessories to be able to use Linux in the past that cost more than GPU.

Linux has always been a small subset of the PC market just like Apple has only been a small subset of it. Being a small subset of the desktop going screw Nvidia if they are not going to provide decent drivers is a totally valid move. This is no different to what had to be done with different highly popular printers.

The importance of stability and security to expanding Linux desktop market share should not be underestimated. Its horrible right supporting Nvidia is less important than providing a properly stable experience long term.

Also there is a big mistake when you talk about PC market people make.

https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/276425-charting-9-years-of-gpu-market-shifts-between-intel-amd-and-nvidia

This is not new but the reality is over 50% of PC made don't have AMD or Nvidia decanted GPU even the current numbers look roughly the same as 2 years ago(the current numbers I can only find behind a paywall). The productivity things like doing accountancy and writing documents don't need super big GPus but stability is important.

The reality is if you look at the total PC market Nvidia is in less than 20 percent of the machines. Next reality is those using Nvidia cards to do productivity work that they are getting paid for due to the unsuitability of Nvidia with Linux are unlikely to be using Linux. So hard reality Nvidia users are a small minority of the Linux user base who have mostly not aware they are only a minority where it could be valid to be totally disregarded for the long term good of Linux.

Yes the 80% market you hear though about with Nvidia is for inserted GPU into motherboards the majority of Nvidia market share in the PC space is as a replaceable part. Intel and AMD majority of their market share is integrated into CPU that is bound to motherboard so a very expensive part to replace.

See the problem yet once you step back and properly look at market shares Nvidia on Linux is not standing on a very solid foundation of market share at all. Nvidia not in fact been the dominate market share on Linux does mean Nvidia are really not in a position to be saying our way or no way like they have been.

[JackLilhammers]

oiaohm You're right, my bad. I wrote PC market, but I meant PCs with dedicated gpus.
Of course if we take the whole PC market integrated gpus are the vast majority. And Linux fares pretty well with those cards.

Then again when we talk about Nvidia and AMD, we talk about dedicated graphic cards intended for gaming and productivity.
And we also talk about notebooks with dedicated gpus.
That's Nvidia's market. And on Windows they just work. It can't be ignored.
Full time Linux users might decide to go all team red, but part time users or laptop owners won't buy AMD just because Linux does not offer a good experience with Nvidia.
It's way more likely that they'll ditch Linux than Nvidia, or they'll just stick to X and complain about Wayland...

[oiaohm]

That's Nvidia's market. And on Windows they just work. It can't be ignored.

There is something you have missed with the Windows just works bit this is lot more dangerous to the Nvidia position.

Full time Linux users might decide to go all team red, but part time users or laptop owners won't buy AMD just because Linux does not offer a good experience with Nvidia.
It's way more likely that they'll ditch Linux than Nvidia, or they'll just stick to X and complain about Wayland...

Yes you are right they are likely to ditch bare metal Linux and go WSL2 with the d3d12 mesa3d back-end on Nvidia that will end up being more stable than Nvidia current offerings. You have also ignored what Microsoft has said with WSl2.

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Microsoft-Writing-Wayland-Comp

Microsoft is also backing Wayland. Over time more and more Linux desktop applications will come wayland only and lose their x11 support.

The hard reality here there is no future for Nvidia binary blob drivers in current form for Linux applications in future. Nvidia users are either going to go Windows and use mesa to dx12 or change over to AMD/Intel or Nvidia will finally grow up and do working Wayland support.

Nvidia is truly the last party attempting to push baremetall X11 crap forwards and they are not investing enough to-do that either.

The idea to stick to X11 going forwards is not a option. Bare metal X11 server is going away. Linux desktop of any form without wayland is going away.

Yes Intel, AMD, Nvidia in arm soc chips(yes different department to your desktop GPU market) and Microsoft are all in agreement that the future is Wayland not X11. Yes they are also all in agreement that GBM/DMA_BUF is what you use for buffer management as well.

The future reality if Nvidia does not change its drivers is if you want to run Nvidia desktop cards you must be a Windows user. Remember Nvidia burnt their bridges with Apple and the console vendors as well with the same kind of stupid being stuborn.

Of course Nvidia for high end server cards also needs Linux to have a cost effective OS. Nvidia has basically set the Linux platform bridge on fire its burning just has not completely failed for Nvidia yet. If Nvidia does not change path they are going to burn the Linux bridge out like they did to Apple and Console we are talking here Nvidia losing 90% of their income if this happens. Lot of ways in my eyes Nvidia is pure suicidal.

[JackLilhammers]

oiaohm I hope you're right. We'll just have to wait and see