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It's Time To Admit It: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware

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  • Originally posted by kurkosdr View Post
    Why do people always assume highly specialized knowledge is abundant on the internet? Just because most techie people can code a small graphical application doesn't mean they know how to make Wine work with Wayland or dive into either codebase.
    O boy is this wrong or what. Something remember all developers working on wine or the Linux kernel when they started they had no specialised knowledge.

    https://github.com/varmd/wine-wayland This person decided to attempt to make wine work with wayland has got quite a darn long way getting the specialised knowledge by doing.

    Originally posted by kurkosdr View Post
    The "do it yourself" motivation applied perfectly in the great era of the CLI, because if you can code one Unix CLI app, you could code any Unix CLI app (save for compression and encryption stuff). Please stop using it, it has not been relevant for decades.
    This is even more wrong. The new developers to Linux kernel and Wine normally come in with no specialist knowledge. Along the way new developers make a huge number of failures and have huge number of code rejections before they finally get something included.

    There are two very important factors.
    1) Do you have the time to-do it?
    2) Do you have the motivation to-do it?
    The reality here is it does not matter the field with enough time and effort you can close the gap over any disadvantage caused by missing specialised knowledge at the start, Heck having the specialised knowledge is useless to get the task done if you don't have the 2 important factors as well.

    If you want something done and you don't have the time or the motivation to-do it there is always the option to find someone to be motivated by pay to-do it. Of course if you don't have the time or motivation or money you are kind of screwed.

    The reality is those running projects need to be always asking if you can do it one way or another this is how they get more developers. Yes 99.9 percent of people may be saying no to them but that 0.1 percent who says I will try and is successful normally comes the next generation of developers for the project.


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    • Originally posted by pal666 View Post
      let's not forget the fact that x11 is not feature complete(wayland is an attempt to (feature)improve x11)
      let's not forget the fact that x11 had lots of features that became outdated/useless very quickly, like primitive drawing and font rendering
      they were replaced by gui toolkits

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      • Originally posted by pal666 View Post
        i have wayland on $100 second hand compuer
        from what year? if 2009+ then it makes sense

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        • Originally posted by pal666 View Post
          the most funny thing is they didn't understand wayland and thought it has some deficiencies which they tried to solve with mir. but it's only their understanding of wayland was wrong
          they could have contributed to wayland

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          • Designating XOrg server as abondonware when the alternative doesn't even cover all of the cases that XOrg did isn't very constructive at all and its just going to make a confusing shitshow out of the whole situation. Ontop of this, there are a lot of improvements in current XOrg master which aren't released yet which is just making things worse.

            They should have done this transition when there are more than 2 programs that compile with Wayland (i.e. more than Chrome and Firefox), wine working with Wayland fully (currently impossible because Wayland doesn't give the control that Wine needs for GUI drawing), optimus for people with dual GPU laptops, VR, etc etc.

            I haven't even gotten onto the NVidia problems, i.e. people who use NVidia GPU's because of CUDA, the fact that NVidia hardware historically worked with good performance (where as AMD didn't up until very recently) or if you are doing serious virtualization with passthrough.

            So yeah, all that I see happening is someone will fork and maintain XOrg (valve maybe?) until Wayland becomes usable for all cases and I will open some popcorn and watch the linux communities make the situation a bigger mess then it even was because thats historically what always happened in these cases.

            Making Wayland just a bare protocol was also a remarkably stupid decision but lets not even get there. If anything Linux needs a server protocol where all of the hardware mess is abstracted away so that each compositor doesn't have to re-implement all of this redundantly. The equivalent would something like bluez only having the bluetooth protocol and then requiring everyone else to redundantly implement the protocol which is as retarded as it sounds.

            X did some things badly but abstracting away from hardware wasn't one of them.
            Last edited by mdedetrich; 26 October 2020, 03:08 AM.

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            • Originally posted by dragon321 View Post

              I'm using Firefox on Wayland every day since version 77 or 78 and I just wanted to ask: What are you talking about? It's stable and reliable for me and features like GPU acceleration or hardware video decode works without any noticeable problems. I think I would notice "pre-alpha quality". When did you try Firefox on Wayland last time?
              I use Firefox Dev on Wayland too, but now videos are flickering and often there is just a black screen. Menues of addons are mostly white boxes. The close button in CSD mode is broken. Scaling is not working. And the basic renderer flickers terribly on Plasma Wayland. Then Firefox just shows again only a Wayland icon. Just look at the bug reports before asking people what they are talking about ;-)
              Last edited by R41N3R; 26 October 2020, 03:14 AM.

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              • Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
                Designating XOrg server as abondonware when the alternative doesn't even cover all of the cases that XOrg did isn't very constructive at all
                It's not a matter of "designating" anything... it's simply a recognition of facts. If the X11 development community has abandoned it to the point where nobody remaining cares enough to do releases, "abandonware" seems a perfectly accurate description.

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                • Originally posted by R41N3R View Post
                  ... on Plasma Wayland.
                  There is your issue root cause

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                  • Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
                    Designating XOrg server as abondonware when the alternative doesn't even cover all of the cases that XOrg did isn't very constructive at all and its just going to make a confusing shitshow out of the whole situation. Ontop of this, there are a lot of improvements in current XOrg master which aren't released yet which is just making things worse.

                    They should have done this transition when there are more than 2 programs that compile with Wayland (i.e. more than Chrome and Firefox), wine working with Wayland fully (currently impossible because Wayland doesn't give the control that Wine needs for GUI drawing), optimus for people with dual GPU laptops, VR, etc etc.

                    I haven't even gotten onto the NVidia problems, i.e. people who use NVidia GPU's because of CUDA, the fact that NVidia hardware historically worked with good performance (where as AMD didn't up until very recently) or if you are doing serious virtualization with passthrough.

                    So yeah, all that I see happening is someone will fork and maintain XOrg (valve maybe?) until Wayland becomes usable for all cases and I will open some popcorn and watch the linux communities make the situation a bigger mess then it even was because thats historically what always happened in these cases.

                    Making Wayland just a bare protocol was also a remarkably stupid decision but lets not even get there. If anything Linux needs a server protocol where all of the hardware mess is abstracted away so that each compositor doesn't have to re-implement all of this redundantly. The equivalent would something like bluez only having the bluetooth protocol and then requiring everyone else to redundantly implement the protocol which is as retarded as it sounds.

                    X did some things badly but abstracting away from hardware wasn't one of them.
                    Valve works on their own wayland compositor https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...escope-XDC2020

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Zan Lynx View Post

                      It works perfectly here on a Vega 56. Are you sure you're even running the amdgpu driver? Some 5700XT users installed back when the driver didn't understand the card and they got stuck with "nomodeset" on the kernel command line (look at /proc/cmdline) and they've been using LLVMpipe without realizing it, since it's actually pretty fast on a multicore CPU with AVX.
                      I'm sure it's ok. Clear install with current kernel, firmware, etc and WAyland Fedora works sluggish for me. Ryzen3600X user here. Just when I change it to X it's butter smooth.

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