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It's Time To Admit It: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware

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  • I'm more than willing to jump the Wayland boat once either Gnome or KDE sorts out VRR for both Wayland/XWayland apps. I tried to use sway for a few days and it's fast and smooth but having no DE in a Wayland WM seemed even worse than something like i3 in terms of needed workarounds for my apps.

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    • As long as Wayland devs live in their own bubble, X is not going to be abandonware UNFORTUNATELY.
      It just escapes my mind why they force you to use VSync, at least make it opt-out...
      I'd rather use X than have a stuttery mess with input lag, thank you very much.

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      • Originally posted by Fanboy80 View Post
        As long as Wayland devs live in their own bubble, X is not going to be abandonware UNFORTUNATELY.
        It just escapes my mind why they force you to use VSync, at least make it opt-out...
        I'd rather use X than have a stuttery mess with input lag, thank you very much.
        I respect the vsync argument but I never really understood it, at least not in modern times. In the past I heard a lot of issues about it, but recently I've never heard complaints about it. Primarily in Windows, since DWM forces vsync. There used to be dirty hacks to disable it (like, killing DWM), but that was when 7 just came out. That's nearly a decade ago and since then I've never heard of people complaining about forced vsync. Either it isn't an issue on modern hardware, or GNOME/KDE and other compositors are doing something wrong. Or it's nVidia's fault, could be that too.

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        • Originally posted by Fanboy80 View Post
          As long as Wayland devs live in their own bubble, X is not going to be abandonware UNFORTUNATELY.
          It just escapes my mind why they force you to use VSync, at least make it opt-out...
          I'd rather use X than have a stuttery mess with input lag, thank you very much.
          Not all wayland compositors are created equal. X11 is a very tearing mess when you don't have any form of VSync.

          X11 took decades to develop to where it is today. Wayland developers fixing the issues is taking time.

          Really the number of performance fixes that gnome has found in their main shell solution is insane.

          There has been a lot of faults that before the wayland work we have been ignoring.

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          • I really believe X11 shouldn't be abandoned. And, if it really had to be replaced by something better, I don't think Wayland is the solution. The Wayland website argues that there are obsolete features in X11 which belong to the 80s and nobody uses them anymore. Well, that's fine, but such features could be deprecated if needed without starting a new thing from scratch. Moreover, then they argue that remote rendering won't be supported in Wayland because it's "orthogonal" to it and it's "too complicated". This is when they show they don't have the slightest idea of what they are doing: do they want to remove old features, or just build their dreams toy with only the things they consider cool to have? They even recommend to use Xorg if you want remote rendering!! Are they UNIX developers? I mean, don't they need to run software in a HPC server? They really look like their idea of UNIX is using Gimp in Ubuntu (because if that's your idea of UNIX, then yes, Wayland is better than X11).

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            • Originally posted by cesarcafe View Post
              I really believe X11 shouldn't be abandoned. And, if it really had to be replaced by something better, I don't think Wayland is the solution. The Wayland website argues that there are obsolete features in X11 which belong to the 80s and nobody uses them anymore. Well, that's fine, but such features could be deprecated if needed without starting a new thing from scratch. Moreover, then they argue that remote rendering won't be supported in Wayland because it's "orthogonal" to it and it's "too complicated". This is when they show they don't have the slightest idea of what they are doing: do they want to remove old features, or just build their dreams toy with only the things they consider cool to have? They even recommend to use Xorg if you want remote rendering!! Are they UNIX developers? I mean, don't they need to run software in a HPC server? They really look like their idea of UNIX is using Gimp in Ubuntu (because if that's your idea of UNIX, then yes, Wayland is better than X11).
              Really a lot of the deprecated features in X11 have been marked as so for over 2 decades and you still have the Nvidia binary blob using them instead of their newer replacements that all the open source drivers use.

              Remote rendering in X11 protocol being marked at "too complicated" is a valid answer. xpra exists because X11 protocol include remote rendering is a broken pile of crap.
              https://xpra.org/trac/wiki/Usage/OpenGL The reality is you get better remote rendering X11 support using Xwayland with xpra on the application side due to standard X11 problems doing opengl.

              https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe

              There is a recommend way of remote render wayland applications it is waypipe is not as feature rich as xpra yet.

              Cesarcafe sometimes way a feature has been done is wrong. The remote render design in X11 protocol is wrong because it has all operations needing to go from the X11 application to the X11 server and back before the application can go forwards. Yes xpra/NX... sitting on the remote connection allows X11 application to proceed forwards straight away without having to worry about network lag.

              Question should application really know network is there? The wayland developers answer no. This is why the wayland remote render answer is something like waypipe you will run a wayland/X11 compositor local to the application being network forwarded so the application not being stalled out by network latency issues and so you can really use a GPU to accelerate opengl and vulkan without jumping though insane number of hoops.

              cesarcafe the reality is the obsolete features in the X11 protocol are obsolete even you remain using X11. X11 remote rendering in protocol is obsolete by the way xpra/nx/xvnc does remote. If you look at xpra/nx/xvnc the reality is xvnc wayland does have its ways of doing this with remote desktop protocols yes its a low level driver solution then the xpra and nx method is the waypipe method.

              The wayland developer saying that remote rendering will not be support by wayland protocol is right because if you look at xpra/nx/xvnc they are not using X11 remote rendering protocol instead they are after local rendering they can send remote. If you are going to be local rendering all the application output the results is applications don't need to know about remote rendering. Remember wayland protocol is between application and compositor. If you are doing local rendering a compositor has to be local. The compositor need to know about remote rendering the applications don't need and it need to be this way so applications can perform well and that is what xpra/nx/xvnc tell us.

              Cesarcafe basically as soon as you started arguement for remote rendering to be part of Wayland protocol you show lack knowledge in how remote rendering with X11 has been done over the past 15 years because the past 15 years tell you that the path Wayland protocol is on is right.

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              • How dare you coming here with real knowledge. Shoo.

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