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  • Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
    Its not just about buffers, but also about exclusive full screen (which still doesn't properly work on all wayland's implementations).
    https://github.com/Plagman/gamescope

    You can spoof a virtual screen with a desired resolution and refresh rate as the only thing the game sees, and control/resize the output as needed. This can be useful in exotic display configurations like ultrawide or multi-monitor setups that involve rotation.

    Fun right. Exclusive Full Screen access Valve does not want applications with. Legacy applications of valve will ask for exclusive full screen access at like 800x600 and if your monitor does not support it game is not running. This is not a ending issue you need abstraction exclusive full screen access is one of the features of X11 that does not in fact work. Instead what you need is what gamescope is where applications says what it wants and then gamescope sets up the gpu shaders to make it the right values for the connected monitors. Yes we need working abstraction when application asks for full screen.

    Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
    I am not talking about just Intel+AMD. The whole point is that Intel+AMD is not the only hardware out there, there is also NVidia and if we are talking about gamers its actually the minority.
    This gets more complex when you look at the valve store.


    Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
    Which is irrelevant to Linux gamers that have NVidia hardware. They care about the system working with their hardware not about internal Linux politics, so as long as this is the case the X11 won't be abondoned in reality (if issues need to be fixed). It will just be forked and maintained.
    https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...el-NV-XWayland

    X11 with what Valve need must cease to be bare metal from the application.

    Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
    Interfacing with the hardware is what is duplicated since Wayland is just a protocol.
    libwayland-server and wlroots are both libraries they both implement how to interface with hardware so when you are making your own wayland compositor you don't have to. So yes Wayland is a protocol but the upstream reference implementation Weston provides libraries in the form of libwayland stuff so you are not duplicating effort if you choose to go that route. The parties that have not agreed with the way libwayland stuff has done stuff has gone wlroots. So there is not a huge amount of duplication here.

    Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
    Versus not being able to run Linux at all because you have an NVidia graphics card? I think that problem is much worse then the one you are describing
    This is still you missing the problem space.

    Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
    Yes and thats the point, if Valve wants to make the most money they need the largest possible amount of people using Steam which means they need to support NVidia, thats the reality.
    This is really not understanding the problem space. Over 2/3 of the games Valve is licensed to sell has quirks so are needing something like gamescope to work properly. So this means currently AMD and Intel users of steam on Linux can be sold 3 games for every 1 they can sell to Nvidia users without risk of refund due to some miss behaviour. So in profitability to steam Nvidia vs AMD/Intel the AMD/Intel users are ahead for Linux users.

    Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
    So this means that either the Linux community needs to mature a bit and actually work with NVidia in trying to get a solution working, e.g. EGLStreams (instead of just them figuratively and literally fuk off all of the time) or Valve needs to deal with the fact that a lot of its Linux users will be using X11 (and even currently they are using X11) and hence in the worst case they might be forced to support X11 if the status quo doesn't change (or they just ignore Linux, hence my previous point).
    Funny you have not not looked at how gamescope works.

    Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
    Ontop of this, certain distro's will not move to Wayland unless its up to the distro's standards and the most popular distro (Ubuntu) is sticking to X11 for NVidia hardware for obv reasons.
    Does this change need for wayland and Xwayland support to run Steam provide games well the answer is no. Something crticial you missed is gamescope that is a Wayland proxy compositor in fact will run on top of X11. So to run steam games in future you have X11 bare metal for your Nvidia you want to run steam games you need Wayland and Xwayland support because you will be proxyed inside.

    GLX Relay from Redhat, Zink from another developer are competing out for the Xwayland solution. Of course those who keep X11 on bare metal for gaming playing using steam games will have extra overhead those who don't. Sorry this is Valve road map.

    There is no future with Valve for their games interfacing with a X11 server on bare metal directly, Valve X11 needing games will all interface with Xwayland inside a wayland proxy compositor that may be on top of a bare metal X11 server or a Wayland compositor horrible point the one on top of X11 bare metal will have extra overhead.

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    • Personally I don't care either if I use Xorg or Wayland, I've had mixed experiences with both.
      Right now I'm on Xorg because all I care is that I can use my applications everyday without anything bothering me. I don't "use" my OS, or "my display protocol", or "my desktop environment", I use my applications, like the browser, the terminal and its programs, I use gimp and audacity, and so on.
      So I couldn't care less about wayland vs xorg, I just pick what gives me less errors and headache and move on. Once I run into issues with xorg on my current PC I'll try another thing.

      I see many people on this post falling into Display Tribalism, like "I'm a wayland user" or "I like xorg because xxx". All you should be caring is that you can get your things done on your system, which is through applications, not OSs/Display Protocols or even DEs; you just pick whatever is comfortable and move on to actually using the system.

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      • I am not responding to the rest since I would be repeating myself but on this specific point

        Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
        Funny you have not not looked at how gamescope works.
        Actually I have, but its funny that you have missed the main point which is that the majority of people will only be running bare X11 since NVidia currently now only works properly with bare X11. So all of these measure to get Wayland working with applications is only effecting the minority of people that are actually running Wayland (in context of Steam gamers).

        And while gamescope can theoretically support a sandboxed wayland inside of a bare X11, it currently cannot with NVidia because its missing a feature in X11, i.e. from their README

        > It runs on Mesa+AMDGPU, and could be made to run on other Mesa/DRM drivers with minimal work. Can support NVIDIA if/when they support accelerated Xwayland.

        And this is precisely the point I am making, in order for this to work NVidia needs to work properly with Wayland/XWayland which it currently doesn't because of the reasons I stated before. So gamescope currently doesn't work with NVidia with X11, so we are back to square one again.

        Obviously Valve wants to minimize their work on legacy codebases as much as anyone else, I have never discounted this. The critical point is that if there is some problem/bug/feature that requires a change in X11, this either needs to be picked up by someone (I only mention Valve because I think they are the most likely to do such a thing for reasons stated earlier) or it will be ignored. The XWayland issue I noted earlier is an example of this.
        Last edited by mdedetrich; 26 October 2020, 07:42 AM.

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        • Originally posted by pal666 View Post
          its russian transliteration means several things https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homonym
          It doesn't matter that a word _can_ have several meanings. What matters, is the meaning it's supposed to have. In context of the Mir display server, it's obvious that the intended meaning is "peace".

          Comment


          • Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
            Actually I have, but its funny that you have missed the main point which is that the majority of people will only be running bare X11 since NVidia currently now only works properly with bare X11. So all of these measure to get Wayland working with applications is only effecting the minority of people that are actually running Wayland (in context of Steam gamers).
            This is still missing.

            Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
            > It runs on Mesa+AMDGPU, and could be made to run on other Mesa/DRM drivers with minimal work. Can support NVIDIA if/when they support accelerated Xwayland.
            Thing you missed is running on a Wayland or X11 bare metal with Intel or AMD gamestop in fact works.

            Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
            And this is precisely the point I am making, in order for this to work NVidia needs to work properly with Wayland/XWayland which it currently doesn't because of the reasons I stated before. So gamescope currently doesn't work with NVidia with X11, so we are back to square one again.
            The interesting point you miss is gamestop will work with wayland supporting games under Nvidia because it does not need working XWayland and can use eglstream to get there.

            Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
            Obviously Valve wants to minimize their work on legacy codebases as much as anyone else, I have never discounted this. The critical point is that if there is some problem/bug/feature that requires a change in X11, this either needs to be picked up by someone (I only mention Valve because I think they are the most likely to do such a thing for reasons stated earlier) or it will be ignored. The XWayland issue I noted earlier is an example of this.
            Making Xwayland work does not require changing X11. GLX Relay and zink are a Mesa3d code base patch and both can result in XWayland coming functional on Nvidia

            The hard reality here is Valve supporting legacy applications in there store don't need a new version of x.org X11 server at all. Updates to mesa3d yes.

            Valve has absolutely no reason to do development work on x.org X11 server.

            mdedetrich the reality here is you have been clueless the reason why Nvidia Xwayland does not work is that Nvidia drivers don't install the parts so Xwayland can work. Of course since this is driver failing to install required parts this does not require patching X11 server to fix. Instead its patching the drivers. The drivers for XWayland are not in the X11 x.org code base but are in fact in the mesa3d code base.

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            • Originally posted by tildearrow View Post

              Canonical's usage of CLA.

              People did not want to support the Mir protocol, so eventually it died out and Mir is just another Wayland compositor.
              Mir specifically didn't have a protocol because they didn't want people to come to depend on one. Personally, if I create a large software system and you tell me you have a small fix for it, but that you will only give it to me if I give up all my rights, I will not take your fix. Do you really think that makes me unreasonable?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
                Making Xwayland work does not require changing X11. GLX Relay and zink are a Mesa3d code base patch and both can result in XWayland coming functional on Nvidia

                The hard reality here is Valve supporting legacy applications in there store don't need a new version of x.org X11 server at all. Updates to mesa3d yes.

                Valve has absolutely no reason to do development work on x.org X11 server.

                mdedetrich the reality here is you have been clueless the reason why Nvidia Xwayland does not work is that Nvidia drivers don't install the parts so Xwayland can work. Of course since this is driver failing to install required parts this does not require patching X11 server to fix. Instead its patching the drivers. The drivers for XWayland are not in the X11 x.org code base but are in fact in the mesa3d code base.
                WTF are you going on about?

                The NVidia blob doesn't even use MESA, it provides its own Vulkan and OpenGL API's which sit in the blob's driver. If you are using a desktop with an NVidia card (along with the blob) then you won't even have MESA installed (although this depends on the distro, some of them install MESA even though you don't need it and it will be unused). If you are on a laptop with hybrid graphics then MESA is only going to be used for the integrated GPU inside the AMD/Intel CPU (the whole point of optimus is for demanding 3D applications such as games to use the discrete card, in this case NVidia with its blob).

                This is why in the README.md of the project you are referrencing (gamescope) says that it requires acceleration to work with XWayland for NVidia because there isn't any MESA. This means that the NVidia blob will have to work properly with Wayland (both so that gamescope actually works and also so that people will use NVidia + Wayland in the first place).
                Last edited by mdedetrich; 26 October 2020, 09:23 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Nocifer View Post
                  That's ridiculous! I need to write one universal comment that covers everyone's viewpoints.)
                  Your comment was... actually very good and perfectly balanced.

                  Whilst I am in the "Pro X11" camp for now, I didn't find myself disagreeing with any of your points.

                  Your summary that both are in a bit of a mess certainly seems true but where does that leave us? What would you suggest? Also what are your predictions for the future of "drawing to a sodding screen" on free platforms?
                  Last edited by kpedersen; 26 October 2020, 08:41 AM.

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                  • This is another non-sense by IBM/Red Hat: the industry movie niche relies 99% on Linux (99% RHEL/Cantos) all the proprietaries software in use and proprietary drivers work only with X. Blender has just an experimental support for Wayland without considering that you get CUDA and OPENCL only with proprietary drivers (NVidia/AMD) and those do not support wayland. Is RED HAT dicthing this market? Or, are there secret agreements with other companies, like M$, to move this niche under WSL2/DirectX?

                    You can't trust corporations at the end of the day they are watching only their wallets.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
                      The NVidia blob doesn't even use MESA, it provides its own Vulkan and OpenGL API's which sit in the blob's driver.
                      Really you have not looked how the driver hooks in with XWayland have you its Nvidia designed libglvnd0. So anything that filled the required areas of libglvnd0 for XWayland will make Xwayland accelerated work.

                      https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/..._requests/6429

                      Its about time you do some reading.

                      Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
                      If you are using a desktop with an NVidia card (along with the blob) then you won't even have MESA installed (although this depends on the distro, some of them install MESA even though you don't need it). If you are on a laptop with hybrid graphics then MESA is only going to be used for the integrated GPU inside the AMD/Intel CPU (the whole point of optimus is for demanding 3D applications such as games to use the discrete card, in this case NVidia with its blob).
                      Its really not that straight forwards. If Nvidia does not provide XWayland solution. Redhat will provide a XWayland solution based of Mesa code base abstracting over the Nvidia binary blobs so they run without needing root X11 server that is the GLX Delay path.


                      Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
                      This is why in the README.md of the project you are referrencing (gamescope) says that it requires acceleration to work with XWayland for NVidia because there isn't any MESA.
                      To be correct in release mesa there is no XWayland for Nvidia. In development branches of Mesa we have GLX Delay as a option. The zink option also offers to fill in the libglvnd0 stuff in XWayland. Remember most applications built with pure Vulkan work native Wayland and already work with Nvidia with all wayland compositor solutions supporting eglstreams and that includes gamescope that gets it from wlroot..

                      Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
                      This means that the NVidia blob will have to work properly with Wayland (both so that gamescope actually works and also so that people will use NVidia + Wayland in the first place).
                      Nvidia blob it self does not have to work directly with Xwayland as long as abstraction makes it work somewhat. Its not like valves older titles need the best performance at first.

                      Its really simple to miss that driver with XWayland is 100 percent abstracted by libglvnd0 that Nvidia designed and Nvidia has failed to release the add on library so libglvnd0 for Xwayland works. So now its up to redhat with GLX Delay or Zink to fill in the gap Nvidia has created with their incompetent driver development.

                      Basically the pure reason why Xwayland does not work with Nvidia is 100 percent Nvidia fault. Heck Xwayland was design to use the abstraction Nvidia designed. What Nvidia is libdlvnd0 defective and you have mandated everyone else use it and will not use it yourself????
                      Last edited by oiaohm; 26 October 2020, 09:38 AM.

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