AGP Graphics Card Support Proposed For Removal From Linux Radeon/NVIDIA Drivers

[rogerx]

I still own one laptop from 2001 and a 1997 AGP 2x750P3 Intel with 1GB RAM still kicking and running. I used them for back-up boxes for the past decade, for SSH'ing into the sometimes broken Linux built newer platforms. I still use the laptop intermittently and the Intel 2x750 P3 box is still in a room, but raring to come to life once I finish a garage interior for making room for it's operation again as a stable backup computer. Both rely upon the Nouvea driver and DWM atop Xorg.

Sounds like these guys wanting to ditch/break hardware, are rich enough for always buy newer hardware, leaving us poorer people with broken hardware once again. Also sounds like MS employees want to break a stable kernel.

Could always revert to using the Linux virtual terminal, but I'm sure these guys have an agenda for breaking much more of the stable x86 architecture kernel routines as already mentioned within the article... all the stuff that made the Linux famous and better than MS Windows.

And as I further think on this, if you have to remove/break coding features, likely means you did not code it correctly! I've seen lots of code in my time, that was merrily written to make something work or just finish the project within a time span, rather than build the code correctly from the bottom-up. Just take a look at MS PowerShell scripting documentation... the scripting language naming style made me sick! However, I'm sure it was coded to make scripts work and within a certain time schedule. Made me quickly away, back to Bash/Cygwin or other solution.

[Guest]

Let's move this to a DKMS module.

Oh wait I think my 15-year-old laptop could be using an AGP card...

Yeah I have a really old but functioning laptop that could be using AGP. Got to check.

[TemplarGR]

I still own one laptop from 2001 and a 1997 AGP 2x750P3 Intel with 1GB RAM still kicking and running. I used them for back-up boxes for the past decade, for SSH'ing into the sometimes broken Linux built newer platforms. I still use the laptop intermittently and the Intel 2x750 P3 box is still in a room, but raring to come to life once I finish a garage interior for making room for it's operation again as a stable backup computer. Both rely upon the Nouvea driver and DWM atop Xorg.

Sounds like these guys wanting to ditch/break hardware, are rich enough for always buy newer hardware, leaving us poorer people with broken hardware once again. Also sounds like MS employees want to break a stable kernel.

Could always revert to using the Linux virtual terminal, but I'm sure these guys have an agenda for breaking much more of the stable x86 architecture kernel routines as already mentioned within the article... all the stuff that made the Linux famous and better than MS Windows.

And as I further think on this, if you have to remove/break coding features, likely means you did not code it correctly! I've seen lots of code in my time, that was merrily written to make something work or just finish the project within a time span, rather than build the code correctly from the bottom-up. Just take a look at MS PowerShell scripting documentation... the scripting language naming style made me sick! However, I'm sure it was coded to make scripts work and within a certain time schedule. Made me quickly away, back to Bash/Cygwin or other solution.

1) You don't need a modern distribution for 2001 hardware dude. Like seriously, with 1GB, you can barely run firefox alone these days. You need to understand, this hardware is OLD, even if it is still functioning, it can't run modern software. Just use an existing distribution and you will be fine.

2) This "code is bad that is why it breaks" is bullshit. Drivers share a lot of code and systems, you don't expect each and every linux driver to be an isolated self-contained driver, do you? If that was the case, Linux distros would have been like Windows and come in 10GB and 20GB isos, WITHOUT the apps....

[Adarion]

I still have some AGP cards. Not using them often, though. I mean, if we still have at least PCI (real PCI not the Express) support, well, okay.
Usually I need the GPU only not to be headless on these systems, and if I'd do old games I'd probably had to have DOS or W9x there; or use an Emulator/API-layer anyway.

But classic PCI would still be important. Moreover there ARE a few boards with onboard-GPUs that are linked via AGP (cause it was the fastest option at its time). E.g. some VIA ones I definitely have at mind (I know, VIA, openchrome, this doesn't yet have much of 3d acceleration). But maybe there are also some thin clients and boards with AMD or NV GPUs linked via AGP, those should still be supported.
Maybe the AGP part can be taken separately?

[Slartifartblast]

Angola cape verd for example or Spain

Actually Spain does have two sovereign enclaves in Morocco which is in Africa but that would be like saying the UK is in South America because it has sovereign territory in the South Atlantic. Geography fail.

[middy]

I still own one laptop from 2001 and a 1997 AGP 2x750P3 Intel with 1GB RAM still kicking and running. I used them for back-up boxes for the past decade, for SSH'ing into the sometimes broken Linux built newer platforms. I still use the laptop intermittently and the Intel 2x750 P3 box is still in a room, but raring to come to life once I finish a garage interior for making room for it's operation again as a stable backup computer. Both rely upon the Nouvea driver and DWM atop Xorg.

Sounds like these guys wanting to ditch/break hardware, are rich enough for always buy newer hardware, leaving us poorer people with broken hardware once again. Also sounds like MS employees want to break a stable kernel.

Could always revert to using the Linux virtual terminal, but I'm sure these guys have an agenda for breaking much more of the stable x86 architecture kernel routines as already mentioned within the article... all the stuff that made the Linux famous and better than MS Windows.

And as I further think on this, if you have to remove/break coding features, likely means you did not code it correctly! I've seen lots of code in my time, that was merrily written to make something work or just finish the project within a time span, rather than build the code correctly from the bottom-up. Just take a look at MS PowerShell scripting documentation... the scripting language naming style made me sick! However, I'm sure it was coded to make scripts work and within a certain time schedule. Made me quickly away, back to Bash/Cygwin or other solution.

i don't mean to come off as a smug rich person here, but can you really say, with a straight face, that you can't pick up a cheapo $50 dell from 2009 that has a core 2 duo in it and a pci-express card? i'm pretty sure if you're really poor just going dumpster diving will give you results of a 99% chance of pulling out an old computer made in the last 10 years that has a pci-express card in it. let alone all those business and university surplus stores that sell old work units for absolute dirt cheap. even if you live in the third world i still can't imagine it being hard picking up with all things considered, an ancient machine these days that only has a pci-express gpu. let alone just straight up onboard graphics on the cpu itself. even an old atom based netbook from 2010 would be a massive upgrade over both of those machines you listed. let alone a modern chrome book from acer you grab on sell for $99.

nvidia has been making pci-express cards since 2004. ati before amd released pci-express cards around the same time frame as nvidia. there are over a decade of pci-express cards out in the wild and pretty much anything from 2008 and above have a 90%+ chance of being pci-express. let alone 2011+ a near 100% guarantee. if your only option is some how an antiquated machine to 1997 then really the only thing i can say is exceptions are not the rule. the universe of users only having access to a machine that has hardware that dates from 1997 are incredibly insignificantly small. i'm shocked linux even supported AGP for as long as it did considering both nvidia and amd gutted support for those cards out of their primary mainline drivers on windows years ago. even on linux nvidia already gutted out support of those cards on their main driver package.

[rastersoft]

Where the fuck do you think Spain is?

I suspect he is french ("Africa begins at the Pyrenees")

[Tuxee]

TL;DR I don't think many individuals in Africa use Linux outside of (sponsored) educational roles. Regarding hardware: I can confirm ancient hardware (20 years or older) is still very useful and being used.

But dropping AGP support now would still mean that an Ubuntu 20.04 can be run for the forseeable future (if any modern distro runs on such ancient hardware at all).

[oiaohm]

But classic PCI would still be important. Moreover there ARE a few boards with onboard-GPUs that are linked via AGP (cause it was the fastest option at its time). E.g. some VIA ones I definitely have at mind (I know, VIA, openchrome, this doesn't yet have much of 3d acceleration). But maybe there are also some thin clients and boards with AMD or NV GPUs linked via AGP, those should still be supported.
Maybe the AGP part can be taken separately?

Pcie comes out in 2003. After 2003 AGP GPU even on board turned out be agp to pcie bridge chips so are really a pciex4 slot card. Some of the bridge chips appear in 2002 before the pcie standard is ratified.

AGP appears in 1997 now what about that 1997-2003 time frame of 6 years. PCI come out in 1992. Now do you think those coding bios recoded their interface to output screens on AGP the answer is in fact no. So most AGP cards while in bios operate in PCI mode.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerated_Graphics_Port

AGP is heavily based on PCI, and in fact the AGP bus is a superset of the conventional PCI bus, and AGP cards must act as PCI cards.

This is critical a AGP card that cannot operate in PCI mode is invalid AGP card.

Powerpc computers of the 1997-2003 also run AGP cards in PCI mode. AGP 3.5x slot operating in PCI mode is still has the 2133MB/s though put.

This great improvement in memory read performance makes it practical for an AGP card to read textures directly from system RAM, while a PCI graphics card must copy it from system RAM to the card's video memory. System memory is made available using the graphics address remapping table (GART), which apportions main memory as needed for texture storage. The maximum amount of system memory available to AGP is defined as the AGP aperture.

This here is the theory of how AGP mode is meant to give some advantage. When you read though the quirks you will notice a lot of combinations are put into AGP 1.0 mode in other words this feature disabled because system comes unstable due to MMU issues. Yes I really do mean crash the complete system. Turns out copying from system memory to card allowed the operating system and mmu/chipset to know when it happening when does not end up foobaring the computer in the motherboard chipset MMU unit. The GART system would see stuff read from memory at the worst possible times.

Remember no computer with a powerpc chip 1997-2003 was using the AGP modes yet they were still using AGP graphics cards of that time always in pure PCI mode.

This change does not see AGP cards rendered useless. This change sees AGP cards have a single mode being PCI instead of PCI/AGP1, AGP2, AGP3 and AGP4.

Please note there are cards to check if prior driver functional while support AGP slot features you would need to test it 4 times on at least 3 different motherboards. Yes AGP2, AGP3,AGP4 are different quirk mixes of AGP features that work and don't work yes these happen between the chipset and the AGP controller.

After this change you have PCI mode that any AGP sloted motherboard will do heck a AGP to PCI adaptor will do if you don't care about low performance.

https://translate.google.com/transla...i-adapter.html

Yes they are buildable. You can do the horrible pci to PCIe adapter with a Agp 1.0 to pci adapter with a AGP graphics card in it so you can connect up a AGP card for testing to a modern computer. Performance is going to be bad. Test results will be valid.

This takes you from needing many at least 4 times the number of gpus and with 4 times the number of motherboards down to 1 system. Possible down to a single system with 8 different AGP graphics cards inside for testing.

Yes there is a very big floor space saving and parts requirement saving dropping the questionable AGP modes for those doing development. You have to remember there is not a large performance difference over all between AGP card in PCI mode or all AGP feature mode particular when you remember the powerpc systems run AGP in PCI mode the complete time.

[Tuxee]

Sounds like these guys wanting to ditch/break hardware, are rich enough for always buy newer hardware, leaving us poorer people with broken hardware once again. Also sounds like MS employees want to break a stable kernel.

Could always revert to using the Linux virtual terminal, but I'm sure these guys have an agenda for breaking much more of the stable x86 architecture kernel routines as already mentioned within the article... all the stuff that made the Linux famous and better than MS Windows.

And as I further think on this, if you have to remove/break coding features, likely means you did not code it correctly! I've seen lots of code in my time, that was merrily written to make something work or just finish the project within a time span, rather than build the code correctly from the bottom-up. Just take a look at MS PowerShell scripting documentation... the scripting language naming style made me sick! However, I'm sure it was coded to make scripts work and within a certain time schedule. Made me quickly away, back to Bash/Cygwin or other solution.

Take off your tinfoil hat and stop whining.