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X.Org Server Development Hits A Nearly Two Decade Low

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  • X.Org Server Development Hits A Nearly Two Decade Low

    Phoronix: X.Org Server Development Hits A Nearly Two Decade Low

    With Red Hat shifting their support to Wayland and expecting the X.Org Server to go into a hard maintenance mode quickly, in 2019 indeed it did...

    http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...erver-2019-Low

  • duby229
    replied
    Originally posted by Zan Lynx View Post

    OK but I also do builds on a Dell laptop with a 4 core i7 and Intel iGPU and I don't get Wayland lag there either. I actually credit it to Fedora's systemd cgroup setup, which nicely isolates system daemons, user sessions, and individual user applications from each other. Wayland isn't fighting to run in a 1/10th share of the CPU while I compile. It's got a 1/2 share.

    Now, I agree that software like a Wayland compositor should be running as a memory locked real-time application that never does disk IO. But gnome-shell doesn't do that. Still, with a nice cgroup setup it gets plenty of CPU time.
    I'm not so sure giving wayland half your CPU share is the correct solution, though that'll probably reduce input lag. The correct solution is to extend the protocol so it can sync output on input. But at this stage a decade later, that's not likely to happen.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zan Lynx
    replied
    Originally posted by duby229 View Post

    Ok, but games themselves are getting more parallel, and up until recently most laptops had relatively weak GPU's and only two cores. Add to that that most games are designed with the philosophy of "if it's there, consume it", most games are designed to ping the CPU at 100% and they can do that on up to 4 cores and can almost do it on 8 cores. Which is exactly the scenario wayland compositors experience input lag and which is exactly the worst case scenario for games. You can see how on the vast majority of all computers games -do- lag terribly on wayland compositors.

    So you have a 24 core processor, your computer may not experience that much lag, but most computers will. Just because you have a high end desktop and don't have any experience with lower end hardware doesn't mean that everyone else fits in your same boat.
    OK but I also do builds on a Dell laptop with a 4 core i7 and Intel iGPU and I don't get Wayland lag there either. I actually credit it to Fedora's systemd cgroup setup, which nicely isolates system daemons, user sessions, and individual user applications from each other. Wayland isn't fighting to run in a 1/10th share of the CPU while I compile. It's got a 1/2 share.

    Now, I agree that software like a Wayland compositor should be running as a memory locked real-time application that never does disk IO. But gnome-shell doesn't do that. Still, with a nice cgroup setup it gets plenty of CPU time.

    Leave a comment:


  • duby229
    replied
    Originally posted by Zan Lynx View Post

    I use my 3900X for Android Studio NDK projects and Rust builds all the time. That is what I built it for. I have literally never seen a half second mouse lag.

    Now, I have never tried to do 24 thread compiles while playing Doom 2016 at the same time, because that would be ridiculous.
    Ok, but games themselves are getting more parallel, and up until recently most laptops had relatively weak GPU's and only two cores. Add to that that most games are designed with the philosophy of "if it's there, consume it", most games are designed to ping the CPU at 100% and they can do that on up to 4 cores and can almost do it on 8 cores. Which is exactly the scenario wayland compositors experience input lag and which is exactly the worst case scenario for games. You can see how on the vast majority of all computers games -do- lag terribly on wayland compositors.

    So you have a 24 core processor, your computer may not experience that much lag, but most computers will. Just because you have a high end desktop and don't have any experience with lower end hardware doesn't mean that everyone else fits in your same boat.
    Last edited by duby229; 01-09-2020, 02:23 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zan Lynx
    replied
    Originally posted by duby229 View Post

    He was referring to input lag, even if he didn't realize it, there is nothing that can be done about it. I mean really just put some heavy CPU load on and simply move the mouse, wayland has no way to synchronize output on input, the protocol simply doesn't do it. And it's especially a huge problem when gaming, lag can be like half a second, it's crazy. Wayland was -not- designed for desktop usage especially for gaming or really any low latency usage.
    I use my 3900X for Android Studio NDK projects and Rust builds all the time. That is what I built it for. I have literally never seen a half second mouse lag.

    Now, I have never tried to do 24 thread compiles while playing Doom 2016 at the same time, because that would be ridiculous.

    Leave a comment:


  • duby229
    replied
    Originally posted by Zan Lynx View Post

    I play Doom 2016, Stellaris, Pillars of Eternity, Tyranny and ooh, Peggle using a Ubuntu Gnome Wayland session. Those are all Steam games and work out of the box. I haven't noticed anything wrong with them.

    Ryzen 3900X and a Vega 56 to a 4K LG television.
    He was referring to input lag, even if he didn't realize it, there is nothing that can be done about it. I mean really just put some heavy CPU load on and simply move the mouse, wayland has no way to synchronize output on input, the protocol simply doesn't do it. And it's especially a huge problem when gaming, lag can be like half a second, it's crazy. Wayland was -not- designed for desktop usage especially for gaming or really any low latency usage.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zan Lynx
    replied
    Originally posted by gardotd426 View Post

    Like playing video games? Modern game performance on Wayland is garbage and/or a nightmare to even get working with Wayland half the time. And hardly anyone that plays a lot of games uses Wayland. Yeah, super edge case.
    I play Doom 2016, Stellaris, Pillars of Eternity, Tyranny and ooh, Peggle using a Ubuntu Gnome Wayland session. Those are all Steam games and work out of the box. I haven't noticed anything wrong with them.

    Ryzen 3900X and a Vega 56 to a 4K LG television.

    Leave a comment:


  • gardotd426
    replied
    Originally posted by Zan Lynx View Post

    I've been using Wayland on all of my physical Linux systems since about 2016. It's been solid.

    As far as I can tell everyone who doesn't use Wayland is using Nvidia or has some strange edge case I would have never imagined needing.
    Like playing video games? Modern game performance on Wayland is garbage and/or a nightmare to even get working with Wayland half the time. And hardly anyone that plays a lot of games uses Wayland. Yeah, super edge case.

    Leave a comment:


  • gardotd426
    replied
    Originally posted by frank007 View Post

    Or not...
    Um, literally every linux gamer on every thread on the subject will tell you that Wayland is garbage for gaming right now and that X11 is pretty much the only option. And from everything else I've seen, it actually does seem like Wayland is pretty much only used by devs/engineers. But good rebuttal to dude's comment.

    Leave a comment:


  • royce
    replied
    Originally posted by 144Hz
    Toxic people? Sorry, you’re out.
    Feel free to follow your own advice.

    Originally posted by 144Hz View Post
    KDE keeps insisting on bringing “friends” like C++ and Qt.
    Do you know anything about software development, or you simply throw around terms you've read on the internet?

    Leave a comment:

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