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XWayland Sees Updated Protocol Support To Help WLROOTS & KDE

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  • #21
    Originally posted by treba View Post

    Hm not sure here. Most things you mention are simply out of scope of the (core-) protocol. And what has the driver to do with minimizing? Or screen capturing? Or network transparency? I do agree that lot's of stuff needed to get reinvented, but that was pretty much intended. For example screen capturing: letting every app spy on every other one is IMO one of the worst problems of X11 (for end users, not devs), as it makes it pretty much impossible to properly sandbox apps. Not going the easy route certainly is painful, but we now benefit from it, as the base is not a bunch of hacks over hacks over hacks.

    I personally would say that the route taken is rather smart: not repeating the mistakes of the past. Because creating a whole new protocol without tackling (most) of the problems - that would be insane (says Albert Einstein). The fact that takes so long -> missing manpower. Lots of people here should be able to help on that front.
    Because Wayland incorporated Window Management and Compositor in one entity, and the layers of window management is hardware accelerated. Don't you think that policy management to prevent screen capturing is a much better idea than simply not implementing the ability to screen capture? Don't you think that a purpose designed sandbox would be a better implementation than a compositor developer simply not implementing features?

    The problem with Wayland -IS- the scope... The fact that it's taking so long is that everything is getting redeveloped multiple times over by multiple different teams all trying and failing to do the exact same thing. I believe -that- is what Einstein would consider insanity. If it's not insane, then it's definitely stupid.
    Last edited by duby229; 09-05-2019, 03:06 PM.

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    • #22

      Originally posted by duby229 View Post
      The problem with Wayland -IS- the scope... The fact that it's taking so long is that everything is getting redeveloped multiple times over by multiple different teams all trying and failing to do the exact same thing. I believe -that- is what Einstein would consider insanity. If it's not insane, then it's definitely stupid.
      Where does this happen? Were are people failing? Yes we do have at least three serious compositor implementations, Mutter, KWin and wlroots. Sounds like a good number to me, for such a critical part of the ecosystem. IMO much better than being stuck with one X11 implementation. But where are they failing (apart from not accepting hacky and fragile solutions in favour of doing it right from the start)?

      Originally posted by duby229 View Post
      Because Wayland incorporated Window Management and Compositor in one entity, and the layers of window management is hardware accelerated. Don't you think that policy management to prevent screen capturing is a much better idea than simply not implementing the ability to screen capture? Don't you think that a purpose designed sandbox would be a better implementation than a compositor developer simply not implementing features?
      Sometimes its better to not have a feature than doing it wrong first, then redoing it later again, but having to support the first solution till the end of time because some app depends on it. The Xorg devs learned that the hard way, which is why they don't repeat that. That's btw. also the reason why we need XWayland now :/

      In Wayland, once a good solution is found, it usually gets standardized as a protocol extension (but only after it got successfully implemented and tested). With versioning. Then everyone who needs the feature (window minimizing is not something you need on every platform wayland is targeting, therefore its in the xdg extension, not in the core protocol) can implement it.

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      • #23
        Originally posted by duby229 View Post
        It's not KDE's fault. Wayland is far too incomplete a protocol. Remember it took Gnome a decade to get this far, and Mutter is far, far more than just a Wayland implementation, they had to reinvent so much stuff it is literally stupid.
        Please elaborate.

        Are you so sure about how incomplete is it? Can you specify about what the Wayland protocol needs to be complete?

        I hope you are you sure about what you are talking about and not try to start a flamewar or pretend to look intelligent to other people.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by duby229 View Post

          That makes no sense at all. If your app is GTK3 or QT4 it will just simply work. Period. It's not apps that need to be written for wayland, it's compositor functionality that needs to be reinvented for wayland. Xwayland is for every app that isn't already GTK3 or QT4.
          Xwayland is only a tweak to continue to use Xorg since the applications are not wayalnd native. This causes many issues of compatibility making useless Wayland as well. Why to use wayland if applications continue to be based on xorg? That's the problem!

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          • #25
            Using Plasma 5 Wayland every day on Tumbleweed without major problems, my graphics card is Amd and I can't complain. Some things are still missing, but for a basic experience it works well, crashes have been rare, very rare.
            I do not doubt that others have had less fortunate experiences, but we avoid being absolutists. Each experience can also be different based on the video card drivers. As for Nvidia, it is known that there are problems, it is Nvidia that must solve them, not Kde or Gnome! Want to develop proprietary drivers? Then it's up to you to solve your problems if you want to support Linux-Wayland!

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            • #26
              Originally posted by Charlie68 View Post
              Using Plasma 5 Wayland every day on Tumbleweed without major problems, my graphics card is Amd and I can't complain. Some things are still missing, but for a basic experience it works well, crashes have been rare, very rare.
              I do not doubt that others have had less fortunate experiences, but we avoid being absolutists. Each experience can also be different based on the video card drivers. As for Nvidia, it is known that there are problems, it is Nvidia that must solve them, not Kde or Gnome! Want to develop proprietary drivers? Then it's up to you to solve your problems if you want to support Linux-Wayland!
              Tumbleweed runs everything with XWayland IIRC, which is why it's more stable than plasma on another distro which uses Wayland mostly. I also still get the window focus bug on tumbleweed which is my biggest issue right now on plasma Wayland.

              That said, because XWayland applications still get rendered inside a toolbar rendered in Wayland (pretty sure that's the case at least), moving around windows in plasma Wayland feels more smooth in general (so long as your not using NVIDIA which tends to not like Wayland at all)
              Last edited by Baguy; 09-05-2019, 06:15 PM. Reason: typos

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              • #27
                Originally posted by duby229 View Post
                Minimize for example, all minimize does is place the window behind the desktop, but Wayland has no method of handling it.
                So how minimize works right now? Magic?

                Originally posted by duby229 View Post
                Input latency for another example, Wayland handles input, but has no method for tracking latency of the input.
                So how it works right now?

                Originally posted by duby229 View Post
                Network transparency as another example.
                There's Waypipe in development. Any objections about it?

                Originally posted by duby229 View Post
                Screen capturing as another.
                So what about this?

                https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Scree...ed_screencast_ tool

                Why does wayland need to implement that?

                Originally posted by duby229 View Post
                Window querying is another.
                Please elaborate.


                Originally posted by duby229 View Post
                This is just off the top of my head, I'm certain there's much more. All of this has to have interfaces reinvented by every compositor and then every driver needs to implement the interfaces that were reinvented. And Weston is so horribly incomplete that there is no precedence at all. It's either insane or stupid.
                So you complain about the issues of Wayland but not provide detailed information? Aren't you capable of making a complete post or you are as incomplete as Wayland?

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by duby229 View Post
                  It's not KDE's fault. Wayland is far too incomplete a protocol. Remember it took Gnome a decade to get this far, and Mutter is far, far more than just a Wayland implementation, they had to reinvent so much stuff it is literally stupid.
                  so where kde was all this decade?

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by duby229 View Post
                    Xwayland is for every app that isn't already GTK3 or QT4.
                    both firefox and chromium are gtk3 and still using xwayland. because compositor is easy, rewriting every app using x11 is hard
                    Last edited by pal666; 09-05-2019, 10:15 PM.

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Baguy View Post
                      Just because gnome's wayland is slightly more stable, doesn't make kde a mess.
                      i can tell it's wayland only because vdpau doesn't work. if you see wayland issues in kde, it does make kde a mess indeed
                      Last edited by pal666; 09-05-2019, 10:16 PM.

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