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  • #41
    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    Not quite.

    A stable API (Application Programming Interface) would ensure you don't need to modify the code. Linux has one of those and it is fairly stable (Compared to winrt or the Microsoft Store anyway).
    Bullshit. Linux API (as a software platform, not kernel syscalls) in unstable as hell.

    BTW: You should listen to what Linus Torvalds said.
    Originally posted by Linus Torvalds
    So you actually want to just compile one binary and have it work. Preferably forever. And preferably across all Linux distributions. And I actually think distributions have done a horribly, horribly bad job. One of the things that I do on the kernel - and I have to fight this every single release and I think it's sad - we have one rule in the kernel, one rule: we don't break userspace. (...) People break userspace, I get really, really angry. (...) And then all the distributions come in and they screw it all up. Because they break binary compatibility left and right. They update glibc and everything breaks. (...) So that's my rant. And that's what I really fundamentally think needs to change for Linux to work on the desktop because you can't have applications writers to do fifteen billion different versions.
    Even if you decide to use outdated/deprecated components, building an old program on a new system is not that easy. In the case of a typical GNOME2/Gtk+2 application, you will probably have to:
    - Patch the code against a new version of GCC.
    - Provide patches against new versions of libstdcxx, Boost, ICU, etc.
    - Add even more bunches of patches.
    - Replace components that are no longer exist, e.g. replace old GNOME Doc with Yelp.
    - Replace some of legacy components to gain at least a slightly higher level of security, e.g. replace unsupported LUA with LuaJIT.
    - Porting Autotools to CMake or Meson is not required, but highly recommended.
    - Providing AppData is welcome as well.

    But if this app use WebKitGTK+, you're screwed anyway. In this case, you have to basically rewrite the app to Gtk+3, because WebKitGTK+ has over 150 unfixed security vulnerabilities, and nobody is going to fix it. What's worse, WebKit2 is unavailable for Gtk+2, so you must first port the app to Gtk+3, and then port it to WebKit2.
    Originally posted by Michael Catanzaro
    While upgrading to the WebKit2 API will be easy for most applications (it took me ten minutes to upgrade GNOME Initial Setup), for many others it will be a significant challenge. Since rendering occurs out of process in WebKit2, the DOM API can only be accessed by means of a shared object injected into the web process. For applications that perform only a small amount of DOM manipulation, this is a minor inconvenience compared to the old API. For applications that use extensive DOM manipulation — the email clients Evolution and Geary, for instance — it’s not just an inconvenience, but a major undertaking to upgrade to the new API. Worse, some applications (including both Geary and Evolution) placed GTK+ widgets inside the web view; this is no longer possible, so such widgets need to be rewritten using HTML5. Say nothing of applications like GIMP and Geany that are stuck on GTK+ 2. They first have to upgrade to GTK+ 3 before they can consider upgrading to modern WebKitGTK+. GIMP is working on a GTK+ 3 port anyway (GIMP uses WebKitGTK+ for its help browser), but many applications like Geany (the IDE, not to be confused with Geary) are content to remain on GTK+ 2 forever. Such applications are out of luck.
    On the other hand, Microsoft still provides security patches for MSHTML (Trident).

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    A stable ABI (Application Binary Interface) is what Linux does not aim for in the kernel. This means that if the kernel changes, kernel modules need to be recompiled (no source change needed) and relinked against the new kernel. This is what makes binary blobs less effective on Linux compared to Windows.
    Another bullshit.
    Kernel API (for drivers) is not stable as you think. The only reasons why NVIDIA drivers work pretty well are that they provide huge "glue" code, which is obviously open source, and they don't even try to depend on internal mechanisms like DRI or KMS. However, even this doesn't protect the driver against some regressions from time to time.

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    I tend not to compromise on security. I would only really use stuff like that on my offline "older" workstations because software from 2013 *is* old.
    If you really trust the source, do not have to be afraid of anything. And if you don't, you can always use sandboxing (e.g. Flatpak). Anyway, no need for separated offline desktop for that.

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    The majority of gamers do not use either of those operating systems, neither are "current" which is what gamers typically aim for (Missing the latest Wayland for example which people seem oddly obsessed with). This is a perfect example of proprietary software not really fitting in with how Linux works.
    You could use something like Arch Linux's AUR to get it on a recent Linux install, but then it is no longer officially supported. It is back to being hobbiest junk.
    Yet another bullshit. Ubuntu is the main distribution used on Steam, according to Valve. Moreover, they officially support only Ubuntu and SteamOS, which is a totally niche.
    GOG supports only selected Ubuntu LTS versions, depending on the game. Nothing else is supported. Nobody give a shit about Arch here.

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    And that is basically Unity all over. It is just so un-innovative. The maker communities using it are always just playing catch up. However I am surprised you aren't using Flash...
    And I'm surprised how you can be such an ignorant.
    Cities in Motion, Cities in Motion 2, Cities: Skylines, Dreamfall Chapters: The Longest Journey, Firewatch, Inside, Kerbal Space Program, Leisure Suit Larry: Reloaded, Life is Strange: Before the Storm, Never Alone, Ori and the Blind Forest, Runner3, Rust, Shelter, Subnautica, Superhot, Syberia 3, The Forest, The Long Dark, The Novelist, Verdun - all of these games were created in Unity! Give me at least five 3D titles of such quality created in Flash or HTML5! You can't, because there is nothing like that! And you know why? Because these technologies are not suitable for it (to be honest, Unity had the ability to export to Flash, and still is able to export to HTML5, but it is very limited feature, so it's practically not used outside of simple 2D games)!

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    That is about the same age as your PDF viewer and proprietary (though if it was open-source, much of the software people wrote using it would still be working XD).
    Nonsense. The only reason why Flash now disappears is the trend to get rid of plugins from web browsers. Moreover, Gnash was an open source project, but it's been dead for a long time.

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    Flash was around for a while. How long before Unity dies and you have to rewrite all your code?
    Most games are finished products that are not longer updated one year after the release or so. Moreover, there is no need to rewrite anything, because Unity doesn't need a player/runtime in the sense that Flash games need it, and the output of the Unity is almost distro-agnostic. What's more, Steam is the main gaming platform for Linux, and it uses Steam Runtime to provide a stable ABI. If Linux somehow finds a way to fuck it up (e.g. completely drop support for OpenGL or abandon X11, including XWayland), then the commercial vendors will just drop Linux support, and you will have to forget about the Year of Desktop Linux literally for years. It will bring it back to the times before the Loki era.
    Anyway, Linux is a niche and I don't need to support it if it becomes to hard. Windows and Android markets are good enough for me. Unity is probably the best solution for making decent mobile games, and just great for mid range desktop games. Rather Google would drop Android in favor of Fuchsia, than Unity would just disappear.