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X.Org's S3 Graphics Driver Sees First Release In Seven Years - Still Pre-1.0

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  • #31
    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    Like I said, if KMS would be supported for the Savage,
    Savage was almost exclusively AGP 2x/4x. PCI savages are relatively rare in comparison. I have a handul of agp ones, even one with DFP (the predecessor to DVI), but none with pci.
    PCI/PCI-E to AGP bridge cards only had one very limited commercial release, and some hobbyists (usually 3dfx fanatics) where it is not clear how far they got.

    So basically, you have to still be running 2003 to 2005 motherboards if you wish to use x86-64. Which means that you should have replaced your caps already.

    S3 vision/trio kms i would understand (there are cheap pci-e to pci bridge cards). S3 Savage is pointless.
    Last edited by libv; 27 July 2019, 01:23 PM.

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    • #32
      Comrade CT, your stallmanism sympathies are widely known here. I am afraid, however, that you have betrayed your ideals.
      I heard that you use a PC computer. Unfortunately, x86-64 is a proprietary ISA. You should burn this symbol of evil, and stop using computers completely, at least until you get open hardware RISC-V based device with the Vulkan accelerator.

      Please note that this is a proprietary forum, owned by Michael Larabel. Keep in mind that using proprietary service is just as bad as using proprietary software. It hurts your freedom, so you should remove your account here immediately!

      BTW: Is there any particular reason why you hate Linux so much? Because if you liked it, you would like it to be better and better. However, you still continue your crusade against proprietary software.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
        Like I said, if KMS would be supported for the Savage
        As I said, xf86-video-s3 is the userspace X11 driver, so it will never support KMS. Kernel mode-setting might be supported only by a kernel driver. For the same reason, xf86-video-ati will never support it, although amdgpu already does it.
        I see that you like dreaming. And I try to be a realistic. VIA/S3G for years has been providing drivers for Windows for their GPUs. We also had proprietary drivers for Linux, but we lost them (at least when it comes to the public releases). I believe that it would not happen if Linux provided a sane kABI, or at least graphics driver model.
        You can still wait with the hope that someone will create a sane open source driver someday, but the reality is that many devices will disappear from the market (including the secondary market) before they gain a good Linux support. And almost no one invests resources in already dead hardware, even hobbyists.

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        • #34

          the_scx Interesting response. A bit too heavy handed to work on me. You might wanna be more subtle... and creative.

          Anyway. If there's something in there, I maintain what I said to you in my previous comment.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by the_scx View Post
            We also had proprietary drivers for Linux, but we lost them (at least when it comes to the public releases). I believe that it would not happen if Linux provided a sane kABI, or at least graphics driver model.
            Nah, an unstable Kernel ABI is a non-issue when we have driver source code. Providing binary drivers is actually fairly niche and those who do so (i.e NVIDIA) simply have to spend time and resources maintaining their binaries. All whilst the open-source community sniggers a little because the practice is old fashioned and frowned upon.

            I know a lot of people sticking with Nouveau drivers now instead of the NVIDIA blobs. Not because they are very high in performance but because they are easy and convenient. This is a massive win!

            But don't take my word for it. Take the fact that we purposely have an unstable kernel API as proof. If you want proprietary binaries and the latest product then Windows is the place for that.
            Last edited by kpedersen; 27 July 2019, 02:43 PM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
              Nah, an unstable Kernel ABI is a non-issue when we have driver source code.
              And who will maintain the code in case the community is not interested? Dwarfs? Gnomes? Elves?
              We have many open source projects that have been abandoned and no one wants to develop them. And even if someone wants to, he usually does not have the time or the right knowledge for it.
              For example, we had Intel ILO Gallium3D Driver, but it was abandoned. Literally no one is working on it right now.
              Currently, Intel is working on a new Gallium3D driver, but it will only support new GPUs.
              What if I want support for Intel GMA? Will you develop such a driver for me or should I wait for dwarfs?
              Instead of progress, we have regress here.
              https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...-OpenGL-2-Drop
              Can you explain why open source model does not work here?

              There are more similar cases. Lima driver, after initial successes, stood in place literally for years.
              https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...w-Changes-2016

              Believing that there will always be someone who will develop our favorite project is just wishful/magical thinking in the purest form.
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wishful_thinking
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking

              Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
              I know a lot of people sticking with Nouveau drivers now instead of the NVIDIA blobs. Not because they are very high in performance but because they are easy and convenient. This is a massive win!
              Many people gave up on Nouveau after the driver turned out to be extremely unstable and buggy. I'm one of them.
              Sorry, but I expect the driver will not generate artifacts or hang the computer (no access through SSH or TTY) while watching videos. This is bare minimum for me.

              Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
              If you want proprietary binaries and the latest product then Windows is the place for that.
              If I want to use e.g. Adobe Reader, Google Chrome, Slack, Steam, Unity Editor, WPS Office, etc., I have to switch to Windows, just because you say so?
              Why do you use Linux at all? Isn't GNU/Hurd more kosher/legit?
              Last edited by the_scx; 27 July 2019, 11:03 PM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by the_scx View Post
                And who will maintain the code in case the community is not interested? Dwarfs? Gnomes? Elves?
                If the community is not interested... then yes an elf will be your best bet. It is much more realistic that a fantasy creature can be relied upon to maintain a driver than the original vendor once the hardware reaches EOL haha!

                Originally posted by the_scx View Post
                Many people gave up on Nouveau after the driver turned out to be extremely unstable and buggy. I'm one of them.
                The Nouveau driver didn't magically become unstable and buggy, people with the expectation of gaming just grab the nvidia blob directly. Those who don't game generally don't run into too many issues with Nouveau and keep it. In fact the Wayland experience is commonly cited to be better with Nouveau because of NVIDIA's non-standard choice of EGLStreams.

                Originally posted by the_scx View Post
                For example, we had Intel ILO Gallium3D Driver, but it was abandoned. Literally no one is working on it right now.
                Currently, Intel is working on a new Gallium3D driver, but it will only support new GPUs.
                What if I want support for Intel GMA? Will you develop such a driver for me or should I wait for dwarfs?
                So what are you saying? You already stated that Intel wasn't going to work on the abandoned driver... so yes, wait for a dwarf. Just as reliable a solution it seems. XD

                Luckily with open-source, it is likely that one day this driver will be picked up or at least slightly maintained (i.e like S3 and SIS are).


                Originally posted by the_scx View Post
                Instead of progress, we have regress here.
                https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...-OpenGL-2-Drop
                Can you explain why open source model does not work here?
                I have already mentioned this OpenGL 2.x complexity in a previous post on this thread. I have real hands on experience with this issue since I use the i915 in my Z61t. With the environment variable fix mentioned earlier, it can run Blender with 2.1 OpenGL. Contrast this to the i915 Intel driver for Windows which is not even 2.0 but in fact 1.4 haha. Proof that no matter how complex open-source support gets... it is consistently better than proprietary for older hardware in the long run.

                Also try running the i915 on something new like Windows 10... there is no driver, no OpenGL, no DirectX. There is no proprietary model here. Open-source is the *only* solution.

                Originally posted by the_scx View Post
                If I want to use e.g. Adobe Reader, Google Chrome, Slack, Steam, Unity Editor, WPS Office, etc., I have to switch to Windows, just because you say so?

                You can run what you want but if you find that proprietary software is the majority of software you run, then you personally would benefit from being within that ecosystem. Also if you use the Unity Editor for any professional work (which is rare for Unity because it is effectively a prosumer piece of shite) then you will be on the Windows platform because Linux is a 3rd class citizen and the tool is barely out of beta for it.

                Also, you use Adobe Reader... isn't that pretty old (and 32-bit only)? If you run WIndows, you can use a later, more secure version. This is what Adobe recommends since they removed it from their website. Last security update was 2013 haha. Use an open-source PDF reader if I were you (Xpdf or Evince are my recommendation). At least it would be less vulnerable

                Originally posted by the_scx View Post
                Why do you use Linux at all? Isn't GNU/Hurd more kosher/legit?
                Not at all. GNU/Linux is *the* open-source operating system. Due to its fantastic hardware support, I use it on all platforms that cannot quite run FreeBSD.
                Last edited by kpedersen; 28 July 2019, 07:10 AM.

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                • #38
                  Kevin, thank you! \o/ Each step forward is welcome. Just bringing it in the spotlight it might get someone else's attention, which is a great thing for old hardware.

                  I wish there was an "Old Hardware Foundation" to organize bounties for popular old hardware, so the developers can get paid and the people having that hardware can still use it for a while longer.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
                    If the community is not interested... then yes an elf will be your best bet. It is much more realistic that a fantasy creature can be relied upon to maintain a driver than the original vendor once the hardware reaches EOL haha!
                    When you have a stable ABI, you don't need to rewrite your software over and over again. This is the whole point of stable interfaces.

                    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
                    The Nouveau driver didn't magically become unstable and buggy
                    Agree. It has nothing to do with magic. It's only the fault of the community that the code sucks so much.
                    I am not saying that the problem exists in every case. I noticed this on EL6 when using Chrome on Fermi or Kepler GPUs. I have given up on Nouveau since then. In EL7 I decided to use NVIVIA blob from the very begging and I am happy with this choice.

                    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
                    people with the expectation of gaming just grab the nvidia blob directly.
                    As I said, it is not only about performance, but also driver stability and quality. Moreover, Nouveau don't support CUDA and NVENC, and probably never will.

                    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
                    Those who don't game generally don't run into too many issues with Nouveau and keep it.
                    Oh, so instability is not a serious problem for open source fanatics?

                    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
                    In fact the Wayland experience is commonly cited to be better with Nouveau because of NVIDIA's non-standard choice of EGLStreams.
                    Wayland has so many itches that it is barely usable on desktop anyway.
                    https://www.phoronix.com/forums/foru...04#post1099204
                    BTW: EGLStreams is a multi-platform standard and GBM is just a Mesa invention. Anyway, today EGLStreams is supported by Mutter and Kwin5.

                    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
                    So what are you saying? You already stated that Intel wasn't going to work on the abandoned driver... so yes, wait for a dwarf. Just as reliable a solution it seems. XD
                    And where is the mystical community that was supposed to deal with every problem?

                    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
                    Luckily with open-source, it is likely that one day this driver will be picked up or at least slightly maintained (i.e like S3 and SIS are).
                    Again, magical thinking.

                    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
                    I have already mentioned this OpenGL 2.x complexity in a previous post on this thread. I have real hands on experience with this issue since I use the i915 in my Z61t. With the environment variable fix mentioned earlier, it can run Blender with 2.1 OpenGL. Contrast this to the i915 Intel driver for Windows which is not even 2.0 but in fact 1.4 haha. Proof that no matter how complex open-source support gets... it is consistently better than proprietary for older hardware in the long run.
                    Almost nobody care about OpenGL on Windows, because Direct3D is all that matters here. And with Swift Shader, Windows users were able to run games that depend even on Shader Model 3.0.
                    http://web.archive.org/web/200902250...iftshader/faq/
                    http://dotbootstrap.x2q.net/gaming-w...ased-chipsets/
                    Try to do this on Linux with shitty LLVMpipe/Softpipe/SWR performance.

                    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
                    Also try running the i915 on something new like Windows 10... there is no driver, no OpenGL, no DirectX. There is no proprietary model here. Open-source is the *only* solution.
                    A few seconds of searching in Google:
                    https://superuser.com/a/1376427
                    It also works the other way round. I was able to use the NVIDIA driver for Fermi and Kepler GPUs on Windows 2000, thanks to the great Windows community, especially MSFN and blackwingcat.
                    https://msfn.org/board/forum/35-windows-20002003nt4/
                    http://blog.livedoor.jp/blackwingcat/

                    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
                    You can run what you want but if you find that proprietary software is the majority of software you run, then you personally would benefit from being within that ecosystem.
                    The vast majority of the software I use is open source, but it doesn't change the fact that I don't intend to say goodbye to the proprietary one.
                    There are many fanatics in the Linux community who are trying to tell me that I don't have the right to use proprietary software on this system, only because it is not in line with their ideology.

                    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
                    Also if you use the Unity Editor for any professional work (which is rare for Unity because it is effectively a prosumer piece of shite) then you will be on the Windows platform because Linux is a 3rd class citizen and the tool is barely out of beta for it.
                    Unity is the best thing that happened to Linux when it comes to games. If Unity wouldn't exist, you could forget about most Linux ports. It is currently the most popular multi-platform game engine.
                    What's more, today Unity Editor has official support for Ubuntu LTS and EL.
                    https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...tor-Linux-2019

                    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
                    Also, you use Adobe Reader... isn't that pretty old (and 32-bit only)?
                    So? Does the software have to be rewritten every two years? Although it is old and unsupported (at least not officially), it is still the best PDF reader available for Linux.

                    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
                    If you run WIndows, you can use a later, more secure version. This is what Adobe recommends since they removed it from their website. Last security update was 2013 haha. Use an open-source PDF reader if I were you (Xpdf or Evince are my recommendation). At least it would be less vulnerable
                    Try to fill PDF forms in Evince or xpdf, especially when JavaScript is involved. Good luck!
                    For most documents, Chrome or Atril (Evince fork for MATE) are good enough. However, there are completely unsuitable for complex official documents. The same applies to the documents with embedded 3D objects.
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_3D
                    https://www.pdf3d.com/latest-examples/
                    https://helpcenterint-wpengine.netdn...images/U3D.pdf
                    Or maybe I should pay some Windows users to do certain things for me, because you think Linux is unsuitable for it? I have already encountered such suggestions, so it will not surprise me.

                    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
                    Not at all. GNU/Linux is *the* open-source operating system.
                    Just because the kernel is an open source project, it doesn't mean that users should be force to use only free software. It also works the other way round: no one should stop people from using open source software on Windows.

                    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
                    Due to its fantastic hardware support, I use it on all platforms that cannot quite run FreeBSD.
                    Do you use BSD?! Don't you know that Stallman kills a little kitten every time you boot a non-GNU system?!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by the_scx View Post
                      When you have a stable ABI, you don't need to rewrite your software over and over again. This is the whole point of stable interfaces.
                      Not quite.

                      A stable API (Application Programming Interface) would ensure you don't need to modify the code. Linux has one of those and it is fairly stable (Compared to winrt or the Microsoft Store anyway).

                      A stable ABI (Application Binary Interface) is what Linux does not aim for in the kernel. This means that if the kernel changes, kernel modules need to be recompiled (no source change needed) and relinked against the new kernel. This is what makes binary blobs less effective on Linux compared to Windows.

                      Originally posted by the_scx View Post
                      Although it is old and unsupported (at least not officially), it is still the best PDF reader available for Linux.
                      I tend not to compromise on security. I would only really use stuff like that on my offline "older" workstations because software from 2013 *is* old. But that is fine, the new S3 and SIS driver work would make it run nice and smooth

                      Originally posted by the_scx View Post
                      What's more, today Unity Editor has official support for Ubuntu LTS and EL.
                      The majority of gamers do not use either of those operating systems, neither are "current" which is what gamers typically aim for (Missing the latest Wayland for example which people seem oddly obsessed with). This is a perfect example of proprietary software not really fitting in with how Linux works.
                      You could use something like Arch Linux's AUR to get it on a recent Linux install, but then it is no longer officially supported. It is back to being hobbiest junk.

                      And that is basically Unity all over. It is just so un-innovative. The maker communities using it are always just playing catch up. However I am surprised you aren't using Flash... That is about the same age as your PDF viewer and proprietary (though if it was open-source, much of the software people wrote using it would still be working XD). Flash was around for a while. How long before Unity dies and you have to rewrite all your code?

                      Originally posted by the_scx View Post
                      Do you use BSD?! Don't you know that Stallman kills a little kitten every time you boot a non-GNU system?!
                      What a crazy thing to say. He wouldn't be able to get hold of one. Most kitten rescue websites use non-free Javascript.
                      Last edited by kpedersen; 29 July 2019, 04:12 AM.

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