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Red Hat Expecting X.Org To "Go Into Hard Maintenance Mode Fairly Quickly"

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  • #31
    Originally posted by bison View Post
    So that's something like May, 2029?
    Redhat is 10-11 years. May 2029-2030. That extra year on end is if they have any parties doing final migrations who paying up a good block of money to get the issues fixed.

    Of course that does not mean x.org will not keep on getting driver trimmed over that time. Could be trimmed that the only backend is xwayland by then.

    We will keep an eye on it as we will want to ensure X.org stays supportable until the end of the RHEL8 lifecycle at a minimum,
    There is a scary word by redhat language. Supportable. Supportable does not mean they are planning to keep all it features over that time frame. Supportable means working well enough to meet their customers need and xwayland would achieve that. X11 could disappear out of usage by the death of a thousand cuts.

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    • #32
      I will consider Wayland unfinished until we can open a terminal connection to a remote system and run a command and have its Wayland GUI client window open on my local Wayland display server. Network transparency is a part of what distinguishes a network workstation GUI from a home microcomputer desktop.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by chroma View Post
        I will consider Wayland unfinished until we can open a terminal connection to a remote system and run a command and have its Wayland GUI client window open on my local Wayland display server. Network transparency is a part of what distinguishes a network workstation GUI from a home microcomputer desktop.
        While I agree, I heard that Wayland wasn't designed to support this (except by faking it using screen grabbing). Sad.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by DoMiNeLa10 View Post
          It's simply impossible. Can you expect people to port EVERY window manager out there to Wayland?
          Nobody expects that. Not every single window manager needs to be supported.
          In fact even in the extreme scenario of no single X11 wm getting reimplemented as a Wayland compositor that could still end up being a trivial issue, assuming enticing alternatives were to be provided of course.

          It's all about the actual applications, even more so when it comes to EOL proprietary closed source enterprise ones and games that will never be updated to support Wayland natively.

          It doesn't really matter whether I, or you, like a certain wm and that's actually a fortunate thing. They're just a means to an end anyway.

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          • #35
            I find this very frustrating.

            I like where Linux is today.

            Actually, scratch that. I liked where Linux was 7 years ago.

            I'm not one of those people clinching to Sysinit, but I for one really liked Upstart, and decried it's demise in favor of SytemD which I find highly annoying.

            Furthermore, I don't want any of these snaps/Appimage/Flatpak/whatever packages. All I ever want to use is a system where 100% of all software is instalöed from Apt repos.

            I also very much prefer If up/down over netplan.

            And now Wayland is going to kill Xorg?

            Seriously, wtf us wrong with the open source community in the last 10 years. Everything was perfect, chuggling along the way it always had and now all of a sudden there is all of this arbitrary Cha ge for change sake that only makes things worse.

            I wish I could have stayed on Ubuntu Server Edition 12.04 LTS for all eternity. It has everything I liked about Linux, and none of this other garbage.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by mattlach View Post
              I find this very frustrating.
              Furthermore, I don't want any of these snaps/Appimage/Flatpak/whatever packages. All I ever want to use is a system where 100% of all software is instalöed from Apt repos.
              If you don't want them, don't install them. Where's your problem?

              Perhaps YOU don't want anything besides Apt repos, but other people do.

              Open source is a lot about freedom. What you are proposing is to take the freedom away, by limiting the selection of apps to the ones prepared by the distro maintainers. That is called "conflicting goals".

              Originally posted by mattlach View Post
              I find this very frustrating.
              Seriously, wtf us wrong with the open source community in the last 10 years. Everything was perfect, chuggling along the way it always had and now all of a sudden there is all of this arbitrary Cha ge for change sake that only makes things worse.
              Open source is a mess, and it will remain that way in the forseeable future, fixing all the problems introduced in the past and adding urgently required functionality, which is currently missing.

              If you don't see the mess, it might be because you are using your OS only in a very limited manner.

              Originally posted by mattlach View Post
              And now Wayland is going to kill Xorg?
              Developers of Xorg are abandoning Xorg and switching to Wayland. At least, that's what the article says, if I can still understand English language correctly.

              The conclusion would be that Xorg is likely messy and unfixable.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by JMB9 View Post
                Concerning the Phoronix Forum why was there so much bad feelings when Ubuntu stated that they intend to cancel 32 bit libs - which at least could result in a heads up fore those wanting to work forever with techniques of the 20. century - and Red Hat makes a statement about switching the core component of the desktop while Wayland is known to be currently not ready and this statement is welcomed - despite the nice question about the exact timing read before.
                And concerning that remark 2029 may be even ambitious if the don't make a lot of progress soon. It's just a decade ... Wayland was started in 2008 and in 2019 still has a lot of problems.
                Probably because Red Hat is committing to backwards compatibility for apps in these notes, while the whole point of getting upset with Canonical was that Ubuntu was breaking compatibility.

                Plus, it's obvious from the comments that Red Hat has no intention of stopping X maintenance until Wayland is working properly for them. It's not like they gave a hard date and said it's happening then no matter what. They just said they think that wayland will soon be good enough, so here's a heads up so no one is taken by surprise later on.

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                • #38
                  Hard or not hard, does it matter? KWin on Wayland needs a lot of work to make it usable.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by DoMiNeLa10 View Post

                    It's simply impossible. Can you expect people to port EVERY window manager out there to Wayland? Considering that even the most basic X11 functionality (like moving the pointer) is exposed in Wayland as extensions, porting a single window manager will take a lot of effort, and Wayland might make significant changes to plenty of window managers due to it's different architecture. I don't see a port of dwm to Wayland happening any time soon, as it's impossible to provide same functionality while staying as minimalistic as possible.

                    I might end up being that person who refuses to give up on X11. Remarks like these make me want to switch to using the framebuffer exclusively.
                    This is the same corrupt thinking that the 32 bit people have. Basically: my old hardware / software isn’t supported so I’m going to throw a tantrum and hope I can screw up life for everybody else.

                    Get with the program or fork a solution of your own. I really tire of all of this whinnying over moving forward.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by RahulSundaram View Post

                      Isn't it very telling that pretty much all your examples are IDE's and not consumer desktop applications? I will stand by what I said.
                      lol, its hard to have any applications without developers.

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