X.Org Server 1.20 RC5 Released, Adds EGLStreams To Let NVIDIA Work With XWayland

[Khrundel]

Quit this bullshit narrative. These "some guys with NIH" are basically everyone else, spearheaded by Intel and Samsung.

1. Neither Intel nor Samsung are world's emperors. They can't dictate NVidia how to do their driver.
2. Couple of guys from Intel and Samsung don't define companies policies. I bet nobody from that companies' boards even know that they are supporting Wayland+GBM.
3. That is irrelevant to discussion. Even if all mankind would vote for Wayland, that wouldn't change the fact that wayland guys (with NIH syndrome ) are trying to replace existing solution with a new one. A new one, which made incompatible with existing nvidia solution, don't know out of laziness or intentionally. So it is wayland developers are trying to force nvidia to rewrite drivers Mesa way, not nvidia forcing anybody to do anything.

Isn't this what they always did? I mean to work at all the NVIDIA driver always replaced parts of Mesa with linkers to its userspace 3D library. What's different this time? It's just glue code, their main driver is still the same code that runs on Windows.

What are you talking about? Which Mesa parts? OpenGL specification and GLX and others don't say anything about mesa or no mesa. NVidia driver just installs it's opengl libs. They replace mesa only because in your distro mesa is installed by default.

FOSS community is trying to do same thing MS did, notorious "embrace, extend and exterminate". They have started with a support for open X11/GLX/EGL/OpenGL, standards designed to allow different implementations, and now they are "improving" one part after another, making one of implementations only possible.

[brrrrttttt]

1. Neither Intel nor Samsung are world's emperors. They can't dictate NVidia how to do their driver.
2. Couple of guys from Intel and Samsung don't define companies policies. I bet nobody from that companies' boards even know that they are supporting Wayland+GBM.
3. That is irrelevant to discussion. Even if all mankind would vote for Wayland, that wouldn't change the fact that wayland guys (with NIH syndrome ) are trying to replace existing solution with a new one. A new one, which made incompatible with existing nvidia solution, don't know out of laziness or intentionally. So it is wayland developers are trying to force nvidia to rewrite drivers Mesa way, not nvidia forcing anybody to do anything.

Those who do the work get to make the decisions. NVIDIA don't. Rapid progress cannot be made any other way.

FOSS community is trying to do same thing MS did, notorious "embrace, extend and exterminate". They have started with a support for open X11/GLX/EGL/OpenGL, standards designed to allow different implementations, and now they are "improving" one part after another, making one of implementations only possible.

All of the replacement standards are OPEN as well. Are you suggesting we have reached perfection and we should now stop further development? Because that's the only conclusion from the argument that we should never replace old standards.

[starshipeleven]

Linux could be GNU so free software, could be open source, could be Android, could be even Windows why not... it is jut a kernel

Anbody is free to uses linux kernel and to be linux, but that does not make all users who uses these also source code lovers

I meant Linux/GNU or Linux/busybox of course.

[TemplarGR]

Thanks God someone (or some peoples) showed we are in 21 century and even NVIDIA being a shit company to everyone else, we don't need to answer being a shit community to everyone else as well, but sure there exist a lot of "geniuns" out there, that would como to you with the modern "law of the jungle", if you've bought a hardware that is not well supported you're dumb and deserve it not working.

I don't understand the issue here. NVIDIA users who for some reason ended up using Linux even though they don't seem to care about open source drivers, still have the option to use plain old Xorg like they always did. Hell, i am on amdgpu myself and still use X because i find Wayland not good enough yet. No one forced NVIDIA machines to stop working, so this "law of the jungle" of yours is a non-issue.

What we have been saying is that we don't want NVIDIA shitty vendor-lock-in/NIH policies to dictate the ways of the open source community. If they don't want to cooperate like EVERYONE ELSE, then fine, but this should harm them and their users, not the rest of the world...

[chithanh]

By "proprietary solution" I've meant GBM. This is Mesa-only solution, designed specifically for Mesa.

Not true. It was the solution which the Mesa/Wayland community came up with, but it is not at all Mesa-only. There are several GBM implementations outside Mesa, notably minigbm in Chromium OS and libmali-gbm from ARM Mali proprietary drivers.

Only NVidia so far is refusing to participate.

[oiaohm]

For you - maybe, but others may have another reasons. I bet most have another reasons, considering poor adoption of all distros from FSF's list (http://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html)
Well, there can be two explanation. First is that AMD didn't care about their Linux driver and that is why they have published specs and that is why their fglrx driver wasn't good. Second is that AMD was trying hard for 10 years to make fglrx better, but they are just idiots who can't do anything. I think correct answer is No 1.

This does not line up to benchmark information.

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=radeon-winlin-nov17&num=2

When you have games that engine works properly on Linux the current closed source and open source AMD drivers on Linux beat their windows counterpart.

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=731&num=1

This was not the case just after AMD had acquired ATI and had not published specs due to them not fully being audited by legal and worst part was that quite a bit of the documentation had to be written after AMD acquired ATI this explains why the ati closed source driver was not exactly healthy on windows or linux

Do you remember who is promoting GLVND?

GLVND is NIH(not invented here syndrome) both AMD and Intel started work in Mesa on allowing the Mesa drivers to get along with each other. Nvidia was invited to take part and turned it down. The big goal of Mesa work was to have as much as possible 1 set of software emulations shared between all drivers GLVND does not deliver that and is really a poorer solution.

Also note early GLVND from Nvidia had no plans on supporting the individual drivers inside mesa.

By "proprietary solution" I've meant GBM. This is Mesa-only solution, designed specifically for Mesa.

Sorry wrong. Yes GBM starts with Intel and AMD working on Mesa but it was not design as a mesa only solution. If you go back to old X.Org Developer's Conference (XDC) conference videos and notes you will see it was presented the same way Nvidia presented GLVND and was part of the mesa equal to GLVND that Nvidia choose not to take part with.

https://lists.freedesktop.org/archiv...er/177632.html basically this is Nvidia being late to the party. Of this is after wayland needs something vendor neutral and is not having user space drivers that Nvidia can provide their own of.

Another clear sign of problem is KMS and DRI situation with Nvidia. Fairly much there is point after point of drivers from multi vendors using the same interfaces under Linux and but then Nvidia closed source using their own Unique solutions for them. Please note Nvidia arm cpu boards gpu use open source drivers that Nvidia staff maintain using gbm and kms so Nvidia could have raised design issues way before.

[RomuloP]

I don't understand the issue here. NVIDIA users who for some reason ended up using Linux even though they don't seem to care about open source drivers, still have the option to use plain old Xorg like they always did. Hell, i am on amdgpu myself and still use X because i find Wayland not good enough yet. No one forced NVIDIA machines to stop working, so this "law of the jungle" of yours is a non-issue.

What we have been saying is that we don't want NVIDIA shitty vendor-lock-in/NIH policies to dictate the ways of the open source community. If they don't want to cooperate like EVERYONE ELSE, then fine, but this should harm them and their users, not the rest of the world...

Because Xorg in some places will start to enter feature frozen state with time, it is the case of kwin, we are not talking about deprecated hardware. I seriously can't explain what is being a empathic person because it is a matter of BEING empathic to understand, a good start is stopping talking about "our users" and "their users".

I perfectly understand the fact we can't solve everything, but we are not talking about deprecated hardware, no one is asking Xorg staff to develop a solution, and I'm perfectly fine if pointed frankly that the pull is a mess, horrible to deploy or can break other hardware users experience, but it is not the case, half people here are just trying to use common users as munition to their cause against proprietary driver... This is sick even if some of those understand they are playing the same shit game they are blaming, but It is even sicker when some of them really believe the attitude is not the same.

[Khrundel]

Those who do the work get to make the decisions. NVIDIA don't. Rapid progress cannot be made any other way.

But now nvidia have to do their work to fulfill some random guys decision? This rule works only one way? In russian there is a proverb: "stupid head won't let hands to rest". They've designed weston to use GBM, not thinking about nvidia? Now they will have to support both GBM and EGLStreams or will have to rewrite with some common solution. That is how it works.

All of the replacement standards are OPEN as well.

If standard depends on some single-vendor specific solution it can't be open.

Are you suggesting we have reached perfection and we should now stop further development? Because that's the only conclusion from the argument that we should never replace old standards.

I suggesting to choose, either you can stop using stupid word "NIH syndrome" or be honest and use same term on Wayland.

[Khrundel]

This does not line up to benchmark information.

yes. After Valve, Feral and others fixed mesa AMD drivers. Less than 10 years passed since Valve went to linux, everyone remembers there were only nvidia drivers game ready. Less than 5 years passed since AMD opensource driver became usable. And you telling me how AMD cared about linux performance.

GLVND is NIH(not invented here syndrome) both AMD and Intel started work in Mesa on allowing the Mesa drivers to get along with each other. Nvidia was invited to take part and turned it down. The big goal of Mesa work was to have as much as possible 1 set of software emulations shared between all drivers GLVND does not deliver that and is really a poorer solution.

Didn't know about it. So, can't you see a pattern here? Everytime it starts with some FOSS morons choosing to create Mesa-specific solution within an EXTERNAL interface. Every time nvidia have to reinvent this implementation-agnostic way. Everytime FOSS zealots whining "NIH syndrome* and "just fix nouveau for us".
Especially funny with GLVND: most of laptops with 2 GPU contains Nvidia card, so these guys were designing solution which won't work for half of users. Great job.

[chithanh]

I seriously can't explain what is being a empathic person because it is a matter of BEING empathic to understand, a good start is stopping talking about "our users" and "their users".

half people here are just trying to use common users as munition to their cause against proprietary driver...

I understand your point, and that is certainly what made the Red Hat folks push for XWayland EGLStreams. However, those customers are not exactly victims here. They chose NVidia products fully knowing what kind of company they bought from. A company that is not friendly to the open source community, demonstrates no interest in cooperating with the community unless to their own benefit, and showed the finger to Nouveau repeatedly.

The message we should rather send to such users is that if they want to be cared about, buy either something which works well with Nouveau, or from a company that is friendly to the community.

But now nvidia have to do their work to fulfill some random guys decision? This rule works only one way? In russian there is a proverb: "stupid head won't let hands to rest". They've designed weston to use GBM, not thinking about nvidia?

GBM was developed in the open, all companies were invited to participate. The whole Wayland community agreed on GBM. And since then, all companies with interest in Wayland except NVidia managed to produce a GBM implementation in their drivers (this includes ARM Mali proprietary driver).

yes. After Valve, Feral and others fixed mesa AMD drivers. Less than 10 years passed since Valve went to linux, everyone remembers there were only nvidia drivers game ready. Less than 5 years passed since AMD opensource driver became usable. And you telling me how AMD cared about linux performance.
Didn't know about it. So, can't you see a pattern here?

I wonder why you don't use Windows then? 10 years passed and Windows is still faster at running most games, no matter whether AMD or NVidia.

Everytime it starts with some FOSS morons choosing to create Mesa-specific solution within an EXTERNAL interface.

Get your facts straight. There are at least 3 independent implementations of GBM. The fact that the first GBM implementation appeared in Mesa does not make it Mesa-specific.