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  • #21
    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    You are mistaking slow development with "design".
    It's slightly different and you can see the results long-term.
    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    You might qualify, or you just might just be using Linux wrong and got burned by that (which is another thing entirely), or you might just be trolling. Can't say from here.
    It's far easier to get burned by BSD, it's why people usually turn to Linux after trying one. Nobody tries to wipe their ass and hold their hand. RTFM.
    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    Stop installing hobbyst Linux testbed distros. Seriously, this is the part I have more issues with.
    RHEL and SUSE Enterprise Linux are sole non-testbeds. All the rest are, to a degree, for me. No wish to pay, I can get BSD for free.
    LTS is similar bs. Bit more stable but 3rd party software may stop supporting it before it's EOL and it could bite you in your ass. I can throw you an recent example if you wish. Wasn't longer than month a go when I had nasty run-in with a Ubuntu 14.04. Thought I have particular issue resolved in 10min, took some hours instead.

    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    There is nothing to relearn on most consumer-oriented distros, especially in LTS releases that are frozen for 5 years.
    Most changes are under the hood, irrelevant for the end user, as long as you choose a simple and stable DE (anything that is not GNOME 3 or Cinnamon, and KDE basically) you should be fine for decades.
    Linux desktop experience honestly sucks, sucks donkey ass. Yeah it's usable but it's not even anywhere mile-away convenient as Windows desktop experience is. Same with BSD, so it's utterly irrelevant. I use BSD at home for firewalling and routing, running samba server, suricata in firewall box, and Kodi x86 machine for multimedia which is connected to TV.
    Now, take my particular use case and tell me what exactly Linux could do there better.

    EDIT: Oh I forgot. WiFi is being dished out by Linux. Asus RT-66 box with Merlin fw. Which still does not have fw upgrade which would fix the KRACK. It's been fucking months..
    aht0
    Senior Member
    Last edited by aht0; 24 December 2017, 10:41 AM.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by aht0 View Post
      Why do you think I wrote about throwing gasoline into fire? I KNEW bunch of people would pop off their lids..
      Why you think I answered as if it was trolling? I knew it was 90% trolling bullshit.

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by Vistaus View Post
        QNX is on the rise (it's currently mostly being used in cars by companies like Ford and even Mercedes has a few cars with QNX on-board, but they are closing in on more deals), so not all Unixes are dead. But yeah, most of them are, like HP-UX and whatnot.
        Rise and fall are relative terms. QNX is anything but wildly popular. Many embedded/industrial/etc applications these days got idea they could use Linux and it would do, so they no longer bother self to license QNX. After all, less paperwork, no payments and source you're allowed to modify is advantage. Some even using Linux with realtime patches, handling really demanding use cases. Whatever, there is little point left for QNX. Furthermore, it isn't usual Unix. It is exotic microkernel OS, it exposes POSIX, but I guess just because nobody would write apps for custom OS. When it comes to graphics, they have something really custom, not compatible to other OSes.

        Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
        FreeBSD or permissive licensed stuff would allow them to do the same.
        Sure thing, BUT because it is "permissive licensed", virtually nobody bothers self to contribute back. You can't have open firmware on Juniper either. So forget about proper integration into large deployment, just not going to happen. Nor you could even have support for Juniper HW in FreeBSD. At very most you get some abstract MIPS core support. Not sure what you're supposed to do with it. So, if you want more or less trusted and custom appliance, FreeBSD could theoretically be used. When it comes to practical implementation, it turns out Linux allows to take hell a lot of shortcuts, since it supports a lot of HW and overall it far better developed. This means cutting development time and costs to a fraction of what it would take with FreeBSD. Sure, you'll have to publish source. But, honestly, it isn't something big to worry about. Most of work is being done by Linux kernel team anyway, so there is very little to lose yet hell a lot of things to gain. Sure, some prefer to excersize their pointless dumbass greed anyway, even if it hurts. It is really up to them.


        Yeah, having a permissive license is liked most by such kinds of companies that prefer to not disclose the source of their device's firmware.
        Another example is JunOS (JUNIPER firewall/router firmware).
        So at the end of day it happens to be proprietary, vendor-locked device, where you're not allowed to change anything. So much for BSD "freedom".

        p.s.: as for migration from Linux to BSD,
        aht0
        Senior Member
        aht0 tells reall BS, lol. When Linux outpaced BSDs in terms of development, there was plenty of BSD to Linux migration from both companies and individuals. Even some FreeBSD devs got fed up with FreeBSD management, long known for being stubborn and pointless. Recently it started to gain some sanity but it would be classic example of "too little and too late". Since there is virtually no users and companies left except few most hardcore zealots and DRM bitches, it would be logical there is little migration happens. Most ppl have got idea earlier and already moved. If you stand on the ground level, falling below is difficult and impies some digging, lol. Though still sometimes even FreeBSD devs are getting frustrated by chaotic dumps of unmaintained corporate "gift" code dropped on their heads. I've seen relatively recent rampant comments of some FreeBSD dev on this who got really frustrated with this approach. It seems most companies think it is enough to drop some garbage into this recycle bin and forget about it, let someone else to support it. Somehow this approach is CRAP.

        p.p.s.: sometimes it is a time to learn new things and tricks as it improves efficiency and allows one to go even further than before. Yet, some ppl appear to be "old" in sense they are grossly incapable of learning new things. Even if it makes them and their approaches woefully uncompetitive. Hopefully it explains why most companies dumped BSDs out of their production environments, together with bunch of arrogant uneducable nuts, also eventually known as "veteran unix admins". To the hell, nobody in sane mind would manage their OSes like if its 1995 or so. If someone fails to educate self and uses retarded ways of doing things, it isn't OS fault.
        SystemCrasher
        Senior Member
        Last edited by SystemCrasher; 24 December 2017, 11:05 AM.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by aht0 View Post
          It's slightly different and you can see the results long-term.
          Lol no. It's just far less people so you get less stuff overall. Less stuff = less regressions and more focus on the 2-3 projects that have an active dev on them.
          That's all there is, everything else is your own fantasy.

          RHEL and SUSE Enterprise Linux are sole non-testbeds.
          Ah come on, now you are definitely trolling.

          All the rest are, to a degree, for me. No wish to pay, I can get BSD for free.
          There are also free versions of RHEL and SUSE enterprise. They are called CentOS and OpenSUSE Leap and are built out of the same source code (you can't claim they are "different"). Also Debian stable is company-grade.

          But let's not get reality in the way of a good trollpost.

          LTS is similar bs. Bit more stable but 3rd party software may stop supporting it before it's EOL and it could bite you in your ass.
          That's ... a 3rd party software issue perhaps?

          Wasn't longer than month a go when I had nasty run-in with a Ubuntu 14.04.
          I usually have a very low opinion of Ubuntu. There is a reason for that.

          Linux desktop experience honestly sucks, sucks donkey ass. Yeah it's usable but it's not even anywhere mile-away convenient as Windows desktop experience is.
          Lol, you're on Win7 probably. That's the gold standard before it all went to shit.

          Any basic Linux DE is on par with Windows 7. Win8 and 10 have garbage UI, win10 is a bit better but they still have that great double settings panel and slowly migrate stuff over, so every major update something goes missing and you have to go look for it again.

          Filemanagers on Linux are usually better and have more (useful) features. Only better thing on windows is SMB/AD integration.

          No idea on BSD but if they ported things correctly it's the same as Linux.

          I use BSD at home for firewalling and routing, running samba server, suricata in firewall box, and Kodi x86 machine for multimedia which is connected to TV.
          Now, take my particular use case and tell me what exactly Linux could do there better.
          I think I already said the only place BSD is competitive is in headless server roles, https://www.phoronix.com/forums/foru...065#post997065
          so your question falls a bit flat.

          EDIT: Oh I forgot. WiFi is being dished out by Linux with proprietary driver blobs. Asus RT-66 box with Merlin fw. Which still does not have fw upgrade which would fix the KRACK. It's been fucking months..
          fixed.

          LEDE/OpenWRT (using opensource drivers from upstream) fixed KRACK long ago. http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail...er/009344.html
          Their side of the problem, anyway. KRACK can affect both client devices and Access Point devices, so you need to update your client devices too.

          Your device is using Broadcomm wifi hardware that has total shit opensource driver, so while it is "supported" by LEDE/OpenWRT, it is not recommended to change firmware. And unless Broadcomm themselves patch their blobs, Merlin (or ASUS) can't publish any fix for that issue.

          If you want to use actually opensource firmwares, and not just "custom firmwares" (like Merlin's and dd-WRT) it's recommended to buy hardware with Qualcomm-Atheros wifi chips, as those have best opensource wifi driver support (and have best support in LEDE/OpenWRT).

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by SystemCrasher View Post
            Sure thing, BUT because it is "permissive licensed", virtually nobody bothers self to contribute back. You can't have open firmware on Juniper either. So forget about proper integration into large deployment, just not going to happen. Nor you could even have support for Juniper HW in FreeBSD. At very most you get some abstract MIPS core support. Not sure what you're supposed to do with it. So, if you want more or less trusted and custom appliance, FreeBSD could theoretically be used. When it comes to practical implementation, it turns out Linux allows to take hell a lot of shortcuts, since it supports a lot of HW and overall it far better developed. This means cutting development time and costs to a fraction of what it would take with FreeBSD. Sure, you'll have to publish source. But, honestly, it isn't something big to worry about. Most of work is being done by Linux kernel team anyway, so there is very little to lose yet hell a lot of things to gain. Sure, some prefer to excersize their pointless dumbass greed anyway, even if it hurts. It is really up to them.
            You ignore Clang/LLVM which is now part of FreeBSD base system and authored by.. Apple. Digest it.
            aht0
            Senior Member
            Last edited by aht0; 24 December 2017, 12:04 PM.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by SystemCrasher View Post
              Sure thing, BUT because it is "permissive licensed", virtually nobody bothers self to contribute back.
              Technically speaking, you can bend GPL to become a bit more permissive-like too, and many companies do that.
              They do what grsecurity does now. They provide source only to their customers, and they use NDAs or other contracts (or just the plain threat of not selling them anything) to ensure that the customers don't send that code back upstream. This admittedly works only for businness-to-businness contracts, good luck trying to enforce this on customers buying a 200$ device. But the businness-to-businness market is pretty large, many companies live in it.

              I think the matter is more complex than just GPL vs BSD license. Sure the GPL does add some limitations, but it's not that hard to sidestep if they really wanted.

              You can't have open firmware on Juniper either.
              Not a big loss. It's very overpriced hardware (as you pay also for the software on it).

              So forget about proper integration into large deployment, just not going to happen.
              They have APIs, just as Cisco does, to remote-control and reconfigure fleets of their stuff.

              When it comes to practical implementation, it turns out Linux allows to take hell a lot of shortcuts, since it supports a lot of HW and overall it far better developed. This means cutting development time and costs to a fraction of what it would take with FreeBSD. Sure, you'll have to publish source. But, honestly, it isn't something big to worry about. Most of work is being done by Linux kernel team anyway, so there is very little to lose yet hell a lot of things to gain. Sure, some prefer to excersize their pointless dumbass greed anyway, even if it hurts. It is really up to them.
              It's partly true. Companies buying a SoC for their product usually use whatever they get in the SDK they get from the hardware manufacturer, but what you said does apply to hardware manufacturers making the SDK.

              Some like NXP are basically using a snapshot of LEDE/OpenWRT firmware as their SDK, and every now and then upstream their local patches to LEDE/OperWRT.

              But overall it's more like Linux was chosen for some other reason to get all this attention, and now the ball is rolling as everyone has invested in Linux and won't pull back.

              So at the end of day it happens to be proprietary, vendor-locked device, where you're not allowed to change anything. So much for BSD "freedom".
              Again, you can lockdown Linux systems too, just use signed firmware (and don't provide ways to sidestep it). Even if they release the sources you can't use the hardware nor really "own" it.

              p.s.: as for migration from Linux to BSD,
              aht0
              Senior Member
              aht0 tells reall BS, lol. When Linux outpaced BSDs in terms of development, there was plenty of BSD to Linux migration from both companies and individuals.
              Yeah, I don't find much truly new products using BSD derivatives, most BSD derivatives were born decades ago, and any "new" product using a BSD derivative is usually just the newer version of something older.

              They are what I call "legacy", for Juniper or Sony (or pfsense or whatever) it would be far harder to port their stuff to some Linux-based custom thing than just add something on top to what they already have to keep it updated.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by aht0 View Post
                You ignore Clang/LLVM which is now part of FreeBSD base system and authored by.. Apple. Digest it.
                Yeah, that's another example where having a permissive license didn't kill off the project.

                Another one is WebKit or its successor Blink. Again Apple was involved.

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                  Lol no. It's just far less people so you get less stuff overall. Less stuff = less regressions and more focus on the 2-3 projects that have an active dev on them.
                  That's all there is, everything else is your own fantasy.
                  Look into precise mechanism of getting your piece of code added.
                  Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                  There are also free versions of RHEL and SUSE enterprise. They are called CentOS and OpenSUSE Leap and are built out of the same source code (you can't claim they are "different"). Also Debian stable is company-grade.
                  And what else these free versions are for, other than using users as lab rats? Not to the degree Fedora is, but still.
                  Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                  That's ... a 3rd party software issue perhaps?
                  The precise determination of guilty party does not make the software run though. Running it matters for user.
                  Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                  I usually have a very low opinion of Ubuntu. There is a reason for that.
                  At the same time it's one of the most popular ones, which sometimes makes using it unescapable.
                  Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                  Lol, you're on Win7 probably. That's the gold standard before it all went to shit.
                  7 and 10. I killed off the Apps from the latter (except pieces needed for driving 10's own GUI), blocked telemetry and updates. It's usable and does not get in the way.
                  Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                  Any basic Linux DE is on par with Windows 7. Win8 and 10 have garbage UI, win10 is a bit better but they still have that great double settings panel and slowly migrate stuff over, so every major update something goes missing and you have to go look for it again.
                  Some are kitchen sinks, some are plain ugly, some have UI components crashing upon activation, some can't be customized enough, some are some combination of all.
                  Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                  Filemanagers on Linux are usually better and have more (useful) features. Only better thing on windows is SMB/AD integration.
                  NOTHING comes close to Total Commander.
                  Krusader is attempt at it's cloning and half-usable (at least it has twin panes and same basic functions are there as well), rest are not worth talking about.
                  Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                  LEDE/OpenWRT (using opensource drivers from upstream) fixed KRACK long ago. http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail...er/009344.html
                  Their side of the problem, anyway. KRACK can affect both client devices and Access Point devices, so you need to update your client devices too.
                  Your device is using Broadcomm wifi hardware that has total shit opensource driver, so while it is "supported" by LEDE/OpenWRT, it is not recommended to change firmware. And unless Broadcomm themselves patch their blobs, Merlin (or ASUS) can't publish any fix for that issue.
                  If you want to use actually opensource firmwares, and not just "custom firmwares" (like Merlin's and dd-WRT) it's recommended to buy hardware with Qualcomm-Atheros wifi chips, as those have best opensource wifi driver support (and have best support in LEDE/OpenWRT).
                  Since I am already "trolling",

                  Remark 1. I've been told hundreds of times about VASTLY superior Linux hardware support and how it's pathetic that I'd have to go after specific hardware if I wanted to use BSD. Why do I suddenly get told that if I wanted to properly use Linux, I would have to use hardware x,y but not z. Funny that.

                  Remark 2. Not long a go I got verbally bitched at when I dared remark that Broadcom could burn in hell, for all I care. Apparently it was perceived by quite a lot of individuals that Broadcom was major open source supporter becase Raspberry Pi graphics stack. Funny that, again.
                  aht0
                  Senior Member
                  Last edited by aht0; 24 December 2017, 12:45 PM.

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                  • #29
                    I knew it! The forum responses to this article about FreeBSD getting Wayland by default shows a strong feeling that FreeBSD getting Wayland by default will be doom for all Unixen because FreeBSD is not using the GPL. Without the GPL, all open source software is destined to be stolen and sold at a premium leaving the open source projects behind. Look at Sony, for example... I'm not aware of FreeBSD being able to run on PS4... I would very much like to run vanilla FreeBSD on PS4, but I cannot because Sony did not contribute! I also have lots of Panasas storage blades for which I wish to run vanilla FreeBSD so I can use them as my backup desktop! I can't believe Panasas won't contribute the support back! We even see that Clang has been stolen by Nvidia, Apple and Microsoft and neither are contributing! It's because Clang chose a more permissive license instead of GPL! If they had chosen GPL, we would still see Nvidia, Apple and Microsoft totally embracing Clang like all those other GPL projects that they embrace!

                    Back on topic, I am happy to stand corrected about Wayland support in the *BSDs. I always thought Wayland would be similar to ALSA, and I observe that the Linux community often plays the role of Microsoft in ignoring standards and everyone else because they're more popular. In all fairness, Linux open source developers are more common than, say, the *BSDs. But you know... BSD is dead and there's no reason to use BSD as established by the forum. I guess I should pick one of those Linux distributions from the 50 some odd distributions out there. Pretty cool that Linux has variety, but let's ignore other Unixen because they don't count as viable Unix flavours since they have less hardware/software support and <insert other reasons, like GPL, developers, etc...>.

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by nslay View Post
                      I knew it! The forum responses to this article about FreeBSD getting Wayland by default shows a strong feeling that FreeBSD getting Wayland by default will be doom for all Unixen because FreeBSD is not using the GPL.
                      Wat? How is each event you mentioned even connected to each other?

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