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  • #31
    Originally posted by leipero View Post

    Late to the party but you are probably right. Honestly, I think KDE users are to blame for all this flaming..., here you have GNOME users who do flaming comments such as "Made by GNOME.", and you can clearly see that started all this nonsense, but is that comment reason why it happens? In my opinion, no, it is reaction to much larger minority of KDE users who make flaming comments on almost every GNOME related article in very passive-aggressive way, usually targeting GNOME users not GNOME Desktop, assuming superiority and using very disrespectful language towards GNOME users. I can notice that pattern on other forums also.

    If anything, this is interesting from sociological/psychological perspective, and it is quite clear that much larger KDE users vocal minority have that "better than you" attitude projecting on other users compared to GNOME users. So it's easy for anyone to get dragged in, and it happened to me once ona nother forum..., it's not because "one feels insulted" (since insult is taken, not given), but it's because "can you just stop insulting people for their choices?", and IMO those vocal minority people do a great diservice to KDE, by letting others read what they wrote and recognize the pattern, and built animosity towards whole DE based on that vocal minority as "I don't want to be aprt of this".

    I take myself as an example, before I've started reading comments in articles and participating in them, I couldn't care less for DE, I was GNOME oriented for several reasons, but every so often I've used to "let's see new Plasma (when it came out for example)", and I was like "Wow, they did good job, really modern looking DE" and so on..., with some minor but annoying things prevented me of moving towards it (mostly design things, few bugs here and there due to the Ubuntu ecosystem at that time...). Now, I have to be honest, those type of people managed to build animosity towards KDE in me, the animosity I do not feel for any other DE, even tho it might be something I would never use and I completly disagree with design and implementation philosophy, I'm still neutral on it.

    So this comment is more aimed towards those type of people on "both sides", but mainly towards that vocal KDE minority..., what you are doing is "How to loose potential users 101" with that passive-aggressive approach.
    Likewise I would say a there is a minority in the GNOME community that are rendering GNOME as utterly toxic for others. I am a former GNOME user. Around the time GNOME 3 was around the corner and it was clear that they were no longer offering something that was appropriate for me, I jumped ship. Unfortunately, it dose seem that the ethos of what the GNOME developers envisage how their software should be used has rubbed off onto some people a bit too much. Lets face it, if someone (either a vendor, distributor or fanboy etc.) is going to tell you that your current work-flow or how you use your computer is outdated, uncool or plain wrong, yet their new idea is the only correct way, of course you are going to get blowback.

    On a general note, I believe this zealotry exhibited by the some elements of the Linux community is one reason why the "Linux Desktop" will never take off.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by danielnez1 View Post

      Likewise I would say a there is a minority in the GNOME community that are rendering GNOME as utterly toxic for others. I am a former GNOME user. Around the time GNOME 3 was around the corner and it was clear that they were no longer offering something that was appropriate for me, I jumped ship. Unfortunately, it dose seem that the ethos of what the GNOME developers envisage how their software should be used has rubbed off onto some people a bit too much. Lets face it, if someone (either a vendor, distributor or fanboy etc.) is going to tell you that your current work-flow or how you use your computer is outdated, uncool or plain wrong, yet their new idea is the only correct way, of course you are going to get blowback.

      On a general note, I believe this zealotry exhibited by the some elements of the Linux community is one reason why the "Linux Desktop" will never take off.
      Well I said that already, there are toxic people on both "sides"..., but take a look on the forums (not only here), and see that every GNOME related news gets bombarded with that vocal minority of people in very insulting way, not towards GNOME project, but GNOME users, there's big difference here, if I lie, threads do not, sot ake a look.

      I wasn't fan of GNOME 3 either..., and I am still not a "fan" of it (2 external extensions, and separate dock, if i was a fan of default i would use it "as is"), but I use it due to teh lack of better option for me. Besides, GNOME team keeps maintaining gnome-flashback, based of GTK3 with same applications as GNOME 3 session, it's literally "MATE" (gnome 2), but much better in my opinion (less bugs, customizable enough, can change WM and/or use custom sessions etc.). While I do agree that no one needs to be told what he should or should not use, those are exact same things those toxic people do..., the fact remains, GNOME 3 developers had a vision that was implemented well over time, and it is not the qestion "if" but "when" others will follow similar design. I have no problem admiting I was wrong and I did not understand the idea behind it, and really main reason why I rejected GNOME 3 to begin with (aside from performance problems just few years back, and some present to this day, but same thing goes for Plasma...) was comments of others "not enough customization, bla bla bla" on multiple articles and videos etc., but reality is, what was the most annoying part of GNOME 3 for me? Panel on the top (I came from Windows, and I used Windows at that time), lack of something on the bottom (bad management of windows lists), and really nothing else when you look at it..., it have good theme support (much easier and user friendly than any other DE) and for customizations that's really all I need to be honest. So at that time, I've discovered Connamon, and it was great, looks familiar, have nice animations, do not use bugy compiz but clutter/muffin, stable, works well, why would you want anything else right?

      Over time, I saw appeal of GNOME 3, top panel didn't bother me anymore, in fact it is beter to be the way it is actually, it stays out of your way, display all needed information, lack of bottom and list management solved by using plank (due to the performance issues with dash to dock extension), hide dash X to remove no longer needed dash, top left corner annoyed me at the begining, but I found it very useful now. So, all problems solved for me personally, and now, I wouldn't use Cinnamon if someone kept gun on my head..., i still support and understand why such DE is needed and important, if there was no Mint with Connamon i would likely not move away from Windows. So, i guess my point is that perspectives change over time..., now I like GNOME 3 for that very reason of "staying out of your way".

      My whole point is, if "blowback" is directed towards Gnome Project, if not rude and if constructive..., it's ok, but if it is directed towards users, well..., and that's exactly what you can observe in comments, as I already said, look by yourself and tell me it isn't true.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by danielnez1 View Post

        Likewise I would say a there is a minority in the GNOME community that are rendering GNOME as utterly toxic for others. I am a former GNOME user. Around the time GNOME 3 was around the corner and it was clear that they were no longer offering something that was appropriate for me, I jumped ship. Unfortunately, it dose seem that the ethos of what the GNOME developers envisage how their software should be used has rubbed off onto some people a bit too much. Lets face it, if someone (either a vendor, distributor or fanboy etc.) is going to tell you that your current work-flow or how you use your computer is outdated, uncool or plain wrong, yet their new idea is the only correct way, of course you are going to get blowback.

        On a general note, I believe this zealotry exhibited by the some elements of the Linux community is one reason why the "Linux Desktop" will never take off.
        I'm curious: What DE/WM are you using now?

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by leipero View Post

          Well I said that already, there are toxic people on both "sides"..., but take a look on the forums (not only here), and see that every GNOME related news gets bombarded with that vocal minority of people in very insulting way, not towards GNOME project, but GNOME users, there's big difference here, if I lie, threads do not, sot ake a look.

          I wasn't fan of GNOME 3 either..., and I am still not a "fan" of it (2 external extensions, and separate dock, if i was a fan of default i would use it "as is"), but I use it due to teh lack of better option for me. Besides, GNOME team keeps maintaining gnome-flashback, based of GTK3 with same applications as GNOME 3 session, it's literally "MATE" (gnome 2), but much better in my opinion (less bugs, customizable enough, can change WM and/or use custom sessions etc.). While I do agree that no one needs to be told what he should or should not use, those are exact same things those toxic people do..., the fact remains, GNOME 3 developers had a vision that was implemented well over time, and it is not the qestion "if" but "when" others will follow similar design. I have no problem admiting I was wrong and I did not understand the idea behind it, and really main reason why I rejected GNOME 3 to begin with (aside from performance problems just few years back, and some present to this day, but same thing goes for Plasma...) was comments of others "not enough customization, bla bla bla" on multiple articles and videos etc., but reality is, what was the most annoying part of GNOME 3 for me? Panel on the top (I came from Windows, and I used Windows at that time), lack of something on the bottom (bad management of windows lists), and really nothing else when you look at it..., it have good theme support (much easier and user friendly than any other DE) and for customizations that's really all I need to be honest. So at that time, I've discovered Connamon, and it was great, looks familiar, have nice animations, do not use bugy compiz but clutter/muffin, stable, works well, why would you want anything else right?

          Over time, I saw appeal of GNOME 3, top panel didn't bother me anymore, in fact it is beter to be the way it is actually, it stays out of your way, display all needed information, lack of bottom and list management solved by using plank (due to the performance issues with dash to dock extension), hide dash X to remove no longer needed dash, top left corner annoyed me at the begining, but I found it very useful now. So, all problems solved for me personally, and now, I wouldn't use Cinnamon if someone kept gun on my head..., i still support and understand why such DE is needed and important, if there was no Mint with Connamon i would likely not move away from Windows. So, i guess my point is that perspectives change over time..., now I like GNOME 3 for that very reason of "staying out of your way".

          My whole point is, if "blowback" is directed towards Gnome Project, if not rude and if constructive..., it's ok, but if it is directed towards users, well..., and that's exactly what you can observe in comments, as I already said, look by yourself and tell me it isn't true.
          I do read reddit from time to time and in all honesty, I don't see one camp being any worse than another. Traditionally the biggest complaints seem to be the stability of KDE, while with GNOME it is lack of proper customisation, which is probably net helped with the extensions API being poorly documented and apparently unstable. I don't personally see the extensions as a appropriate way to manage a desktop given those issues. IMO its as if they are doing it as a token gesture and against their will.

          The only real difference on this site is our infamous resident GNOME troll who sadly seems to be tolerated by Michael until they take it way too far multiple times and get banned, again.

          Originally posted by timofonic
          I'm curious: What DE/WM are you using now?
          I use KDE now. I started using it since around 4.8 and have been happy with it.
          danielnez1
          Senior Member
          Last edited by danielnez1; 04 August 2017, 04:54 PM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by danielnez1 View Post

            I do read reddit from time to time and in all honesty, I don't see one camp being any worse than another. Traditionally the biggest complaints seem to be the stability of KDE, while with GNOME it is lack of proper customisation, which is probably net helped with the extensions API being poorly documented and apparently unstable. I don't personally see the extensions as a appropriate way to manage a desktop given those issues. IMO its as if they are doing it as a token gesture and against their will.

            The only real difference on this site is our infamous resident GNOME troll who sadly seems to be tolerated by Michael until they take it way too far multiple times and get banned, again.



            I use KDE now. I started using it since around 4.8 and have been happy with it.
            That might be the difference, I do not visit reddit website and I attempt toa void it as much as I can, so I can't speak for it, but for other Linux specific forums, I can see "a pattern", heck, even here, search GNOME related topics, read comments, search KDE related topics, look comments..., what you will not see often is GNOME users insulting KDE users for their choice, but you be the judge for other way around.

            On topicof what you said, GNOME project is extremely well documented that even me who often have no clue what I'm doing can find my way around in new teritory..., extensions "API" is very well documented, and there's no problem with stability as far as i know, maybe there was in past (like 4 years ago) but not now, and even better, developers no longer need to change version number for extension to work by default (there was always a switch to disable ckeck).

            You misquoted me instead of
            timofonic
            Senior Member
            timofonic for DE, but it's fine .

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by leipero View Post

              That might be the difference, I do not visit reddit website and I attempt toa void it as much as I can, so I can't speak for it, but for other Linux specific forums, I can see "a pattern", heck, even here, search GNOME related topics, read comments, search KDE related topics, look comments..., what you will not see often is GNOME users insulting KDE users for their choice, but you be the judge for other way around.

              On topicof what you said, GNOME project is extremely well documented that even me who often have no clue what I'm doing can find my way around in new teritory..., extensions "API" is very well documented, and there's no problem with stability as far as i know, maybe there was in past (like 4 years ago) but not now, and even better, developers no longer need to change version number for extension to work by default (there was always a switch to disable ckeck).

              You misquoted me instead of
              timofonic
              Senior Member
              timofonic for DE, but it's fine .
              I have corrected my misquotation.

              As I have said, from what I have seen there is not a specific "camp" of users insulting other people more. Of course with out any meaningful statistics or evidence, both of our assumptions are based on our own conjecture.

              I must assert that the GNOME extensions documentation is lacking though. What is available right now are a few tutorials of various degrees of information and some are quite old. What would be good to see, and IMHO would be seen as the GNOME developers being sincere and serious about extensions is reference documentation for the extension APIs, like GTK+'s API documentation.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by danielnez1 View Post

                I have corrected my misquotation.

                As I have said, from what I have seen there is not a specific "camp" of users insulting other people more. Of course with out any meaningful statistics or evidence, both of our assumptions are based on our own conjecture.

                I must assert that the GNOME extensions documentation is lacking though. What is available right now are a few tutorials of various degrees of information and some are quite old. What would be good to see, and IMHO would be seen as the GNOME developers being sincere and serious about extensions is reference documentation for the extension APIs, like GTK+'s API documentation.
                One of the things that made me get out of Gnome is the need to use "extensions" in order to have a DE that I like. The default one is too confusing, ineffective and lack many classic features I use a lot.

                I'm using KDE in Archlinux and somewhat like it, but Plasmashell gets unstable sometimes and some weird errors happen in trivial stuff like configuring the taskbar elements (and sometimes the "screensaver" when screen is locked "crashed" and appeared a message saying that I needed to put a command in console by switching to ctrl+alt+f2 for example...). I might need to investigate it. And I feel KDE is bloated, there are many stuff I would like to remove too but I also miss certain functionality that would be eliminated in the process. It seems I want the impossible: Extreme customizability, features, cool integrations... but lightweight and very robust. Kmail2 is unusable to me, I have TONS of emails (900K only in one account) that I want to save locally but no email client is able to deal with it. Empathy stuff rarely stuff as it should and even Telegram client needs to put new password each time (why?), plus the lack of AV because most of it is a layer over libpurple that lacks features like AV on most protocols. The indexing feature makes the system slow and it's suboptimal, I don't understand why all major DEs organize to create/use/improve one that not makes the system very slow and it works across many DEs :P
                timofonic
                Senior Member
                Last edited by timofonic; 06 August 2017, 03:31 AM.

                Comment

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