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  • #51
    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    No, for a company the decision to use Linux on a server or an embedded device does not carry anywhere near the amount of compromises that a desktop user must make.

    Linux on servers is usually better than Windows for example, and for embedded it is various orders of magnitude better than windows.

    I'm just saying that people that accept a huge amount of compromises and aggravations to run Linux desktop that is painfully inferior to Windows must have a decent reason, and usually it is love of opensource or paranoia.
    People that "just want to get a job done" won't touch linux with a 10ft pole.
    Really? I just thought rooted trees were more appropriate to modern computing.

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    • #52
      Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
      Last time I checked, GNOME supports Mir. Most people don't care about blobs. Of the ones who do, most of them only bitch out of principle (in other words, "it's bad because it isn't open-source", regardless of how well it cooperates with the rest of the system). The only people who have a right to actually complain about blobs are the ones whose work is hindered because of it. For example, the KDE devs.
      Can I join the list of people's whose work is hindered by the blob?

      I use Archlinux for work as a web developer and even though I shelled out $800 on 2 GTX 970's my new GPU is now a RX 480 as of this month.

      Sure Nvidia 370.xx performance is good, but when I turn on and off my HDMI TV monitor Nvidia Blob crashes Gnome Session crashing Sublime, Chrome and everything I had open which just adds distraction.

      Not only that but the crash state would happen on power events like setting the screen to blank.

      And then switching TTY's or powering on and off the screen would cause the GPU textures to artifact on state change.

      The only reason I got GTX 970's was because it enabled me to ditch windows alltogether by providing enough games with good enough performance. And now I'm getting ready to ditch Nvidia on 3 other Work / Gaming PC's here provided AMD provides cards that are "good enough" with a good open driver resolving crash issues.

      I'm amazed at how WINE application performance has improved too, I had no idea Nvidia-blob actually was playing a role in games like StarCraft 2, League of Legends, Photoshop etc... freezing and locking up, those problems don't exist on AMDGPU + MESA-GIT like they did on Nvidia 370.xx

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      • #53
        I have to add, even though I'm not sure Wayland provides much added value in real-time and production it feels good to not have to worry about the blob not working with and actively fighting the future. This is how it feels to be on AMD.

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        • #54
          Oh and also, fullscreen application switching works so much better in Gnome. Hitting the Windows / Meta / Super key before would freeze, switching is smooth on AMDGPU and TTY switching between Gnome Session, GDM and Console is smooth. So horray!

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          • #55
            Originally posted by Cerberus View Post
            Linux is fairly easy to install and use for someone with at least basic knowledge of how computers work, and you are forgetting that average user does nothing else on their computers but surf the Internet, listen to music, watch movies and perhaps write a few documents or edit a few photos,
            99.99% of users with these basic needs don't have such "basic knowledge of how computers work", they can't reinstall Windows either, go figure installing a completely different OS when they don't comprehend the concept of "OS".

            Hell, I've been getting techsupport tickets about dumb retarded things from people on Android too.

            Why shouldnt they use Windows for that then? Because they got one virus too many that screwed up their OS and data, they dont want that to happen again and because of that they will invest a little bit of effort and use Linux for everything except gaming.
            Yeah, that's part of the "paranoia reasons" I said above. Really, it's just easier to learn how to use windows properly.

            Plus there is that cool factor of using a geek OS, if they use Linux it makes them feel superior to their friends who use Windows for everything, makes them appear more knowledgeable, they become the new IT guru in their surroundings and to their family.
            That's the natural process through which a standard user transitions to power user status. As to install an operating system (also windows) they need to acquire basic knowledge about how computers work, which usually is out of reach from most people.
            If their brain does not explode, they can join the power user community.

            A standard user usually chest-thumps with friends to show off how cool he is, or something like that. Computers aren't involved.

            If the subject finds "cool" the geek factor, then you know he is going to gravitate towards power user status.

            She is a more extreme example but many variations of this case exist out there,
            Not extreme at all. That's a pretty normal power user that got blessed with hardware that is supported as-is (with or without blobs) and does not need hardware that isn't supported.

            not to mention people who had someone else install Linux for them and teach them how to use it.
            These are the screaming monkeys. Someone got tired of cleaning their PC every month so slapped Linux on it just because windows executables from Softonic can't install crapware on Linux and so he can get some peace.

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            • #56
              Originally posted by pgoetz View Post

              It appears that both Mesa and Wayland support EGL? http://ppaalanen.blogspot.com/2012/0...and-stack.html
              Yes, everyone supports EGL, but that's not what is being debated.

              Streams and GBM both hook into EGL.

              Streams is only implemented by 1 vendor, while GBM is implemented by lots (including lots of embedded devices, not just Mesa).

              Streams support hasn't been added to any of the Wayland compositors yet, while GBM support is already done and working well.

              Streams support doesn't really add any features that GBM doesn't also have planned, as far as i can tell from the mailing list, and so devs are understandably dubious about throwing away lots of working code for something brand new and untested, that would cause them to have to add thousands of man hours of work for no real reason except NVidia's stubbornness.

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              • #57
                Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                That's more what it was supposed to be like 25 years ago. Anyway that's tangential to my point, you could try to claim it was supposed to be a teapot and it wouldn't matter.
                Let's say it is supposed to be a minix clone for the sake of showing how your bs is completely irrelevant.
                It is still using GPL v2. So it is supposed to be a "minix clone"/"fine porcelain teapot" where you are NOT supposed to run closed drivers on, and any modification you ship to people MUST be redistributed also in source form, which is NOT freedom, it is enforcement of Torvald's will on you.
                You and Schmidtbag and many others are projecting your own viewpoints on what the point of Linux is on Linux, and while it's well outgrown it's point... that's still the real point of Linux. Anything else may be a personal rationale for use, and may be the point for you for using Linux, but It's not intrinsically the point of Linux itself.

                That said yes, you're right it's under GPL as a complete work, however... since when is the GPL, and particularly the GPL v2 about use? Furthermore even if... we are to presuppose that the GPL did consider usage as opposed to just distribution, Torvalds only cares about the social contract of "You make changes, I get them back" now while writing and distributing proprietary drivers certainly violates that, I'll absolutely agree, but the end user using proprietary drivers doesn't. Now personally I think that all non-free drivers including Nvidia's are complete crap with NvidiaGL vs OpenGL and NvidiaStreams vs GBM being oh so perfect examples as to why, but telling the user to fuck off to Windows or BSD because it goes against the point... well... Now that misses the point.

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                • #58
                  Originally posted by Cerberus View Post

                  Of course they pirate Windows and games for it, they need their gaming needs satisfied also for free, but I disagree with the putting up with Linux part because today Linux is fairly easy to install and use for someone with at least basic knowledge of how computers work, and you are forgetting that average user does nothing else on their computers but surf the Internet, listen to music, watch movies and perhaps write a few documents or edit a few photos, all that can be done without hassle on Linux and without much learning, browsers are even the same as on Windows, VLC is the same, LibreOffice is a good clone of Microsoft Office, they are all set for freeloading. If they know how to install and use Windows they know enough to install and use a user friendly distribution like Ubuntu or one of its clones like Mint, it requires minimal effort to learn a few Linux specific things.

                  Why shouldnt they use Windows for that then? Because they got one virus too many that screwed up their OS and data, they dont want that to happen again and because of that they will invest a little bit of effort and use Linux for everything except gaming. Plus there is that cool factor of using a geek OS, if they use Linux it makes them feel superior to their friends who use Windows for everything, makes them appear more knowledgeable, they become the new IT guru in their surroundings and to their family.

                  And I am not joking because I seen this type of behavior first hand, people using Linux because it gives them peace of mind for surfing and to appear geeky to other people, they dont know much about open source other than it is "free" and that its an OS for geeky folks. Over the years they either grow into a open source fan and a true Linux user, get frustrated with too many bugs, give up on Linux and return to Windows or they buy a Mac. People that come to Phoronix and similar portals do not belong to this category usually which is why they have heated debates about Linux related things. These people I talk about have no idea what are Wayland and Mir, they barely know what is X.org, they merely use their OS for daily tasks without knowing much about its innards.

                  I will give you one example-a girl used Ubuntu for a few years, then got a recommendation to try OpenSuse, she downloaded OpenSuse Gnome and installed it and used it for a while, I asked her if she likes OpenSuse and she said yes while obviously referring to Gnome desktop environment, I asked her do you know the difference between a distribution and desktop environment? She looked at me confused and didnt know that distribution and a desktop environment are not the same thing. When I told her she can have Gnome on Ubuntu she was like "wow really? I thought this desktop thing is Linux", for her desktop enviroment was the same thing as distribution, she didnt even know what exactly is kernel yet she used Linux for years successfully. She is a more extreme example but many variations of this case exist out there, not to mention people who had someone else install Linux for them and teach them how to use it.
                  Only 1 single point is needed to debunk all of this nonsense about Linux > Windows.

                  Find a single USB 80211ac stick that works OOTB in Linux.

                  There are none. ZERO. Period. So no internet for such people.

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                  • #59
                    Originally posted by Temar View Post

                    I agree with your assessment. It's not just games but also most of the GPU computing software is optimised for Nvidia (CUDA). Even open source software like e.g. Blender runs much better on Nvidia. It will take years until AMD cards will be a real alternative for people who need serious GPU performance. AMD gamers might be able to switch to Wayland soon, but game studios won't drop X support as long as a large part of their customer base still depends on X. Neither will KDE or Gnome for the same reason.

                    Until everyone is ready to make the switch to Wayland, Wayland will be stable software. :-)
                    What an out-of-date response. Sorry, but Blender is getting the resources for ProRender and Cycles to have OpenCL on both the FX/APU/GPGPUs from OpenCL 1.2-OpenCL 2.x. Until very recent CUDA has been degraded severely.

                    Stop tossing mud on a topic when you're outdated.

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                    • #60
                      Originally posted by Marc Driftmeyer View Post

                      What an out-of-date response. Sorry, but Blender is getting the resources for ProRender and Cycles to have OpenCL on both the FX/APU/GPGPUs from OpenCL 1.2-OpenCL 2.x. Until very recent CUDA has been degraded severely.

                      Stop tossing mud on a topic when you're outdated.
                      Dito.

                      That CUDA bug only affected some cards and has already been fixed.

                      As a regular Blender user and blenderartists reader I can tell you that Blender still has a long way to go when it comes to AMD cards. If you don't believe me, just talk to the AMD users on blenderartists.org and look at the Cycles benchmark results spreadsheet. Blender's render engines have been targeting Nvidia cards for many years, you can't catch up with this level of optimisation in such a short time. OpenCL support still has a very long way to go.

                      But Blender was just an example of many anyway.

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