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Wayland & Weston Saw Fewer Commits In 2014

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  • Skrapion
    replied
    Remote desktop was merged into Weston nearly two years ago.

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  • johnc
    replied
    Originally posted by cb88 View Post
    The problem there is that X does do it... but it does a crap job from a technical standpoint.

    Wayland doesn't do it yet... but it stands a chance of doing a better job than X11. I don't see how it would hard to implement either since they designed it to be nice to deal with the buffers involved. You'd just be routing remote input into local buffers and push the local buffers to the remote client.
    If they can do it better, then great. But from a user's POV I'd rather have a bad implementation than no implementation. Or, perhaps more frankly, a "no implementation" makes Wayland not feasible for me. Maybe that makes me one of the "network transparency" conspiro-nuts or whatever, but that's just the deal. If Wayland offers something better, I'll switch. I have no marriage to X; I just use what's best for me.

    Maybe going forward the best implementation would be something akin to whatever nvidia or valve is doing for their streaming mechanisms. I'm not sure how easy it would be to adopt this to a single window though. Of course if these sort of things were open source maybe the community could adopt them easily. I recognize this particular implementation relies on hardware and a closed driver / library, but maybe the concept could be reverse-engineered and reimplemented.

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  • cb88
    replied
    Originally posted by johnc View Post
    Hey if I can do ssh -Y hostname on Wayland then I ain't going to criticize. But if I can't, I'm not using it.

    I don't care if that's called network transparency or network aware or scraping pixels, I'm just saying that some of us little people out here rely on some of these features that have been a part of X since time immemorial.
    The problem there is that X does do it... but it does a crap job from a technical standpoint.

    Wayland doesn't do it yet... but it stands a chance of doing a better job than X11. I don't see how it would hard to implement either since they designed it to be nice to deal with the buffers involved. You'd just be routing remote input into local buffers and push the local buffers to the remote client.

    Here are the wayland developers thoughts on remote rendering:http://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html#heading_toc_j_8
    Last edited by cb88; 04 January 2015, 06:03 PM.

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  • johnc
    replied
    Originally posted by CrystalGamma View Post
    I meant X11 users who seem to have something against Wayland such as dungeon here or the "but it's not network transparent!11!one!"-crowd.
    Hey if I can do ssh -Y hostname on Wayland then I ain't going to criticize. But if I can't, I'm not using it.

    I don't care if that's called network transparency or network aware or scraping pixels, I'm just saying that some of us little people out here rely on some of these features that have been a part of X since time immemorial.

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  • CrystalGamma
    replied
    Originally posted by davidbepo View Post
    in fact wayland developers are xorg developers and i haven't yet seen anything bad about wayland
    I did not mean developers. I am fully aware that Wayland is at home in the Xorg community.
    I meant X11 users who seem to have something against Wayland such as dungeon here or the "but it's not network transparent!11!one!"-crowd.

    @dungeon: you are aware that most games (which is where XWayland overhead would matter most) are written towards SDL2 which has a native Wayland backend? Likewise, Wayland ports for the toolkits that most non-games use are already there or currently underway. So the only kind of software that is going to need XWayland is proprietary non-game applications, which are probably not many ...

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  • dungeon
    replied
    Originally posted by gufide View Post
    but compositing is still there and there is no performances loss like we see in the X world.
    What performance loss you have for fullscreen apps in X world? I only know of bugs that bad/good compositors + good/bad drivers combinations can cause that.

    For xwayland there will always be some overhead and for sure always more overhead then what good drivers + good compositors have under X.

    I know about optimism Wayland supporters have, but those sometimes needs to be real
    Last edited by dungeon; 04 January 2015, 04:38 PM.

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  • gufide
    replied
    Originally posted by Xaero_Vincent View Post
    Wayland will be fine once proprietary drivers start supporting it or the FOSS stack pulls ahead of the the proprietary ones in both OpenGL profile compliance and performance (unlikely in the near term). Until then, X11 will be a mainstay. XWayland overhead will also need to be addressed but hopefully that is just a matter of "compositing disable" feature needed in the window managers for Wayland & XWayland full-screen applications.
    Wayland dows not need compositing disable. It's up to the window manager to manage it's buffer. If it decides to make one window bypass the rest of it's rendering routine, then he can do it. and it's just fine, you would get a similar result you would get with disable compositing for fullscreen window. It's just that "disable compositing" don't even make sense in a wayland world.

    In X, a fully fullscreen window is supposed to put the control of the screen framebuffer to the window. so it does not behave like other windows, now your game or your video player is in control of the screen and pretty much nothing else. Now, compositing enters the game. With compositing enabled, it's almost if the window manager open a fullscreen window (to take control of the screen buffer) and displays other windows the way it want. The most common way is opengl or xrender. Now if a fullscreen window is opened, the window manager must prohibit it to fully take control of the screen buffer, otherwise compositing now don't make sense. So, to ensure everything is okay, xserver has to simulate that the fullscreen window is in control. So it changes the screen resolution, allocate a buffer for the window and then tells the window manager to display it in a "fullscreen" way. This is clearly a waste of ressource, like everything else in X. Now to allow better performance, when they are fullscreen window, the window manager can simply bypass it's normal rendering code to only display one window. That has the effect of "disabling compositing" because some useless steps are dropped thus reducing the overhead.

    With wayland, there is no such steps like that. Want a fullscreen window? Great! Create a big window and let the window manager manage it. So the window manager only displays the big window and on top of everything else, and can even stop rendering other window, to get similar results as "compositing bypass", but compositing is still there and there is no performances loss like we see in the X world.

    I hope I don't miss anything, if there is something wrong, please let me know!


    EDIT:
    Oh yeah, xwayland... that's another thing. Reducing overhead is still possible, but that's up to the xwayland library and the compositor, and pretty much nothing to do with wayland itself

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  • Xaero_Vincent
    replied
    Wayland will be fine once proprietary drivers start supporting it or the FOSS stack pulls ahead of the the proprietary ones in both OpenGL profile compliance and performance (unlikely in the near term). Until then, X11 will be a mainstay. XWayland overhead will also need to be addressed but hopefully that is just a matter of "compositing disable" feature needed in the window managers for Wayland & XWayland full-screen applications.

    Leave a comment:


  • dungeon
    replied
    If Wayland goes to Desktop, i would probably use something else .

    Still for phones it sounds fine

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  • d2kx
    replied
    I am still excitied for Wayland/Mir, however, I am equally happy to say that X11 has improved so much in the last few years that I am not unhappy with it.

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