Canonical Joined The Khronos Group To Help Mir/Wayland Drivers

[magika]

OFF TOPIC:
Like i said they wont make it easy BUT they wont make it harder either.

Are you familiar with launchpad? In a few words, they released the source but made it so that it can't run on anything other than "launchpad.net" and there is no documentation. People can't even run it on Ubuntu; they said: you are free to submit improvements to us, but we dont like people to use our software somewhere else.
Feel free to port it, but its easirer to write one from scratch

[Pajn]

More magic words.

Magic? I write and run tests every day so no, they are not magic.

I'm aware there's a third party Arch repo that has Unity. Keyword "third party". Which only confirms what I said.

That it can't be ported? Well, it is so I can't see what you meen?

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

You think that they have patched X just for fun?

Canonical disagrees with you.

That's a CLA and if you had ever signed one you would know the difference.

It is not in the official Arch repos anymore.

Why would it?

[Gusar]

they're making it for themselfs.

Thus fully confirming the flak about Canonical not working with/not caring about the community. You really aren't doing Canonical any favors with your posts.

Magic? I write and run tests every day so no, they are not magic.

You think having two display servers isn't disruptive because hey "automatic tests!!". That's what I mean by magic. These hypothetical automatic test do not address the disruption, do not eliminate the need for every developer to bother that there are two display servers.

That it can't be ported? Well, it is so I can't see what you meen?

That it's disruptive. And therefore other distros aren't bothering themselves with it. Like most Canonical stuff. Mir is the biggest disruption, but other Canonical stuff hasn't seen adoption either. Wow, no wonder you can't come up with good arguments, if you can't even follow the discussion properly.

[dee.]

The problem here is this.

There are people who used to use windows (or mac, or whatever) and got frustrated with it, for whatever reason - DRM, price, NSA backdoors, etc. They looked for alternatives, and the first one they found was Ubuntu.

Then these people migrated to Ubuntu, and it was awesome, because it's open source and it's free and it's based on Linux... Of course, these people now have an emotional attachment to Ubuntu.

And now, Canonical is doing some really stupid, potentially harmful things, in an attempt to emulate Microsoft's tactics - they are trying to carve a Canonical-controlled ecosystem out of the larger, user-controlled ecosystem that exists around desktop Linux.

And these people who have an emotional attachment to Ubuntu do not understand it. They're maybe so used to having to defend their choice of OS against windows/mac users, who are constantly giving them the "lol, linux nerd" treatment. So now they respond the same way to any and all criticism targeted towards Canonical. Even when Canonical does stupid/harmful things like this whole Mir thing, the Ubuntu users are going to defend them to the last breath... no matter how many facts are piled against them, no amount of reason can beat that strong emotional attachment they formed with their OS. (Canonical also knows this and takes advantage of it. Just look at every blogpost written by Shuttleworth. )

Other Linux users do not understand this, and try to reason with them and argue against Mir based on technical merits or other reasonable arguments. It won't work though - you can't fight against emotion with reason. People are not rational actors...

And this is why I don't bother myself with the whole Mir debate anymore.

[cynical]

And now, Canonical is doing some really stupid, potentially harmful things, in an attempt to emulate Microsoft's tactics - they are trying to carve a Canonical-controlled ecosystem out of the larger, user-controlled ecosystem that exists around desktop Linux.

Watch as the native troll lays his bait with the utmost care, hoping to secure a delicious meal to sustain him through the cold winter months where there is no mention of the words 'Canonical' or 'Mir'. How many unsuspecting posters will he snare? This trolls fate is uncertain but troll population levels overall have remained consistent over the years, an indicator of the effectiveness of their cunning tactics. Chief of these is the ability to portray themselves as 'reasonable' posters, a kind of mimicry that is common throughout the animal kingdom but no more masterfully exploited than by these frightening creatures.

[Pajn]

You think having two display servers isn't disruptive because hey "automatic tests!!". That's what I mean by magic. These hypothetical automatic test do not address the disruption, do not eliminate the need for every developer to bother that there are two display servers.

One already have to test for X, Wayland, OSX and Windows. Adding a fifth environment isn't much of a hassle.
If you have a good CI that is just a bunch of lines in a config file.

That it's disruptive. And therefore other distros aren't bothering themselves with it. Like most Canonical stuff.

Unity 7 needs patches in X and what not becouse X aren't good enough. With Mir other distros may
just provide a Mir package if they want.

[Gusar]

Adding a fifth environment isn't much of a hassle.

Again hand-waving. It is very much a hassle, and on top of it in this case it's also a completely unnecessary one.

If you have a good CI that is just a bunch of lines in a config file.

Another magic word. If CI caught everything, then why do we even need bug trackers? With CI everyone is releasing bug free software. Well no, that's impossible. So you need a bug tracker, you need to triage the bug reports you receive, you need to reproduce the bugs if you want to fix them, which means you need a second system that has the other display manager. But hey, all that "isn't much of a hassle"...

Unity 7 needs patches in X and what not becouse X aren't good enough.

That's already 7 too much. Not to mention Unity needs more than just that, see the -ubuntu packages here: https://github.com/chenxiaolong/Unity-for-Arch. Each of them replaces the regular Arch package of the same name and they do so because several patches are required for each of them.


@cynical: Are you saying dee is a troll? Cos the thing is, while other parts of his post can be debated (though personally I think he's spot on, no other explanation for the amount of hand-waving), the part you quoted is fully correct. I you think it's not correct, instead of boring prose, provide counter-arguments.

[Pajn]

Again hand-waving. It is very much a hassle, and on top of it in this case it's also a completely unnecessary one.

No it isn't. I daily have commits checked 4-5 different desktop browsers, 5-6 tablet browsers and 5-6 mobile browsers.
And I have no hassle.

Another magic word. If CI caught everything, then why do we even need bug trackers? With CI everyone is releasing bug free software. Well no, that's impossible.

CI doesn't catch everything but it catches more than manual testing and it does so on every platform you release for,
for every commit. It also makes sure that you don't hit the same bug twice

So you need a bug tracker, you need to triage the bug reports you receive, you need to reproduce the bugs if you want to fix them, which means you need a second system that has the other display manager. But hey, all that "isn't much of a hassle"...

If you only targeted desktop Linux (which is a small market, most are targeting Windows and OSX as well)
Wayland already introduced that kind of trouble.

That's already 7 too much. Not to mention Unity needs more than just that, see the -ubuntu packages here: https://github.com/chenxiaolong/Unity-for-Arch. Each of them replaces the regular Arch package of the same name and they do so because several patches are required for each of them.

Learn to read...

[Gusar]

Learn to read...

Umm, what? Seriously, what?

Anyway, this is getting tiring... keep living in your world of "toolkit!!" and "CI!!" magic if you want, just don't be surprised if Mir fails because those magic words do not work in reality.

[Pajn]

Umm, what? Seriously, what?

What you answered were not matching what I wrote at all.