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It's Now Easier Running Wayland Under GNOME-Session

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  • #11
    Originally posted by sobkas View Post
    There is newer version here:
    git://anonscm.debian.org/git/pkg-xorg/wayland/weston.git
    git://anonscm.debian.org/git/pkg-xorg/wayland/wayland.git
    Can't compile from source.
    Can't fetch from Git.
    Need pre-built binaries.

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    • #12
      Kidding?

      Originally posted by uid313 View Post
      Can't compile from source.
      Can't fetch from Git.
      Need pre-built binaries.
      Are you kidding dude?

      The latest Wayland release is available in Debian Unstable - prebuilt for ARM/i386/AMD64 (yes binary packages...)

      Weston is currently part of experimental, but Weston is only the example template of how a compositor should look like, GNOME-Shell is going to be independent of this, and will use its own Wayland compositor.

      At Debian, folks, like me, already start to port all needed stuff over for GNOME 3.10 in experimental/unstable.

      For me running GTK 3.10 with packages from GNOME 3 Staging Ubuntu GNOME Remix PPA just works very fine. Even compiling is straight forward. I already compiled Polari / GNOME Software and others.

      But stuff only gets seriously ported over when stable release versions are reached.

      A lot of stuff needs to be done: AND YOU CAN HELP...

      http://www.0d.be/debian/debian-gnome-3.10-status.html

      Packing needed libraries to compile is the first step. The Ubuntu GNOME REMIX Staging PPA is a great start for already built packages, which most of the time work under Debian as well. (just cherry pick)
      Last edited by gotwig; 09-12-2013, 06:01 PM.

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      • #13
        Originally posted by uid313 View Post
        So on what does GDM run?
        Does GDM run on X, then you select the Wayland session, then you run both X and Wayland?
        Or does GDM run on Wayland?
        Or does GDM run on X then X exits and Wayland starts?
        Or GDM runs on framebuffer or something independent of both X and Wayland?
        Right now? Still X, I would think, since Wayland is being treated as an experimental session choice, not yet a system default.

        Long term, it will run on Wayland, since the GDM UI is just a simplified Shell session, so it will run the same platform as Shell does.

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        • #14
          The thing I dislike about the development process going through with Weston and Gnome Shell is the hard dependency both have on logind and the forced depreciation of ConsoleKit.
          This completely locks out the use of either compositor on any other OS other than Linux, which is a huge cop out in my eyes and only serves to force other Linux distributions to adopt systemd.

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          • #15
            Originally posted by intellivision View Post
            The thing I dislike about the development process going through with Weston and Gnome Shell is the hard dependency both have on logind and the forced depreciation of ConsoleKit.
            This completely locks out the use of either compositor on any other OS other than Linux, which is a huge cop out in my eyes and only serves to force other Linux distributions to adopt systemd.
            Let remind you: ConsoleKit is dead upstream. The code is still available, nobody including staff from *BSD steps up to maintain it.
            Nothing stops adapting logind, a better replacement of ConsoleKit, for their own purpose like Canonical did to handle Upstart, why should it be different for other OS?

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            • #16
              Originally posted by finalzone View Post
              Let remind you: ConsoleKit is dead upstream. The code is still available, nobody including staff from *BSD steps up to maintain it.
              Nothing stops adapting logind, a better replacement of ConsoleKit, for their own purpose like Canonical did to handle Upstart, why should it be different for other OS?
              Because logind is not portable to non-Linux systems, furthermore the LGPL licensing would prevent it from being uptaken by projects that only want to carry code that is permissively licensed.
              Seems ironic that the MIT licensed Wayland and Weston will have to depend on a LGPL component to function.

              And it's not just the BSDs that are suffering, it's OpenSolaris and its derivatives, Minix and any Linux distribution that doesn't want to carry systemd for design or compatibility such as Gentoo, Slackware and Puppy Linux just to name a few.
              This forced adoption of systemd only serves to force Linux distributions who want to migrate away from X11 to either use systemd or get left out in the dust.
              There is nothing fair about that.

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              • #17
                Originally posted by intellivision View Post
                And it's not just the BSDs that are suffering, it's OpenSolaris and its derivatives, Minix and any Linux distribution that doesn't want to carry systemd for design or compatibility such as Gentoo, Slackware and Puppy Linux just to name a few.
                This forced adoption of systemd only serves to force Linux distributions who want to migrate away from X11 to either use systemd or get left out in the dust.
                There is nothing fair about that.
                There were design problems with ConsoleKit that logind solves. If people don't want logind, then they should help out. However, at the moment what is happening that most distributions are just adding a depedency on systemd. Unfortunately there was a recent change in logind (since v205) where it now depends on systemd. That was not known by a lot of people within GNOME. Last we knew, we approved patches (GNOME 3.8.0 timeframe) to ensure Canonical could run logind separately from systemd itself. Unfortunately due to the kernel cgroup changes, these projects are now tied together which I didn't notice until like a week ago. I talked to other GNOME release team member, he was also not aware. That was even a Red Hat person :P

                If you look at the git history of ConsoleKit you'll see most development was done by developers involved with the GNOME project. These people now believe that logind is a better choice. I really do not like it that logind is tied to Linux, but there just is not enough development put in for any other solution. A lot is actually done within GNOME to ensure there is no hard dependency on systemd (e.g. thread on Gentoo-dev suggested otherwise, but it was pretty inaccurate).
                Example: GDM since 3.8.x now assumes that the init daemon not only cleans up GDM, but also all of the children that might have started by it. This is exactly what systemd gives you. However, various other init systems apparently do not have this functionality. It took a bit of development effort, but now OpenRC apparently can also kill the children of a daemon like systemd can.

                Since discussing this all with Gentoo, it seems the non-systemd case will work better than initially assumed. However (and I told them this), almost all people within GNOME do this on various distributions, but almost all distributions use systemd. Which means that any non-systemd code will bitrot quite quickly.

                We have 2 people from OpenBSD who have commit rights. I really like that GNOME runs on *BSD. However, the changes are happening faster than what "choice" people can keep up with...

                Regarding license issues: Note that ConsoleKit is GPLv2.


                PS: To make it clear of timeframe:
                1. No logind, but you sort of want it in some cases
                2. Canonical asks to approve their patches to they can run logind while not using systemd (required fixing some assumptions in GNOME code)
                3. As Canonical can rely on logind, it doesn't seem bad to use more logind features
                4. logind per v205 really requires systemd

                Looking back, obviously we should've checked logind vs systemd more carefully. However, this seemed to be like timezoned. No bad intention, might seems so.
                Last edited by bkor; 09-13-2013, 04:29 AM.

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                • #18
                  Originally posted by bkor View Post
                  Since discussing this all with Gentoo, it seems the non-systemd case will work better than initially assumed. However (and I told them this), almost all people within GNOME do this on various distributions, but almost all distributions use systemd. Which means that any non-systemd code will bitrot quite quickly.
                  This is not the case. There are several distributions of Linux that don't use systemd out there and due to design reasons will probably continue to avoid it, not to mention non-Linux based systems.
                  The OpenRC case is interesting since it's also portable to the BSDs, I would like to see more effort put into that init system rather than lumping everything into the logind basket and making 'THE END IS NIGH BECAUSE BITROT' sensationalisms.
                  Perhaps the Gnome team should donate some of their development time to non-systemd solutions such as this.
                  Last edited by intellivision; 09-13-2013, 04:44 AM.

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                  • #19
                    Originally posted by intellivision View Post
                    The thing I dislike about the development process going through with Weston and Gnome Shell is the hard dependency both have on logind and the forced depreciation of ConsoleKit.
                    This completely locks out the use of either compositor on any other OS other than Linux, which is a huge cop out in my eyes and only serves to force other Linux distributions to adopt systemd.
                    Didn't we have a discussion when this was "announced" that the logind support was optional and not required? I seem to remember a lot of people kicking and screaming, saying the same things as you, then some people who read the article instead of skimming it came along and reminded everybody that it was support for logind and not a dependency.

                    But I may be wrong. That's just what I remember.

                    Edit: I may have been talking about Wayland, while the quote was talking about Weson/Gnome-Shell... ignore me
                    Last edited by Daktyl198; 09-13-2013, 05:50 AM.

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                    • #20
                      Originally posted by intellivision View Post
                      This is not the case. There are several distributions of Linux that don't use systemd out there and due to design reasons will probably continue to avoid it, not to mention non-Linux based systems.
                      The OpenRC case is interesting since it's also portable to the BSDs, I would like to see more effort put into that init system rather than lumping everything into the logind basket and making 'THE END IS NIGH BECAUSE BITROT' sensationalisms.
                      Perhaps the Gnome team should donate some of their development time to non-systemd solutions such as this.
                      What an insanely selfish post... why don't you donate some of YOUR development time to non-systemd solutions.... it's open source.

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