Reasons For Losing Motivation In Wayland

[Temar]

For my needs the OSS driver is obviously the better choice.

I'm happy for you.

I can't think of a single scenario where guaranteed daily or even hourly kernel panics are "superior in every way".

Daily or hourly kernel panics?

Come on. Lets be realistic here.

Look who's talking.

These are the facts whether you like them or not.

I don't think so. You lost your credit when you claimed you had hourly kernel panics. This clearly is not the standard experience a user will have with the catalyst driver. There might have been a driver version which did not work well with your card and led to hourly kernel panics but this is not the standard experience, not even close to it.

[Awesomeness]

You don't know that. Kubuntu, for example, is clearly considering not shipping Mir.

It remains to be seen exactly how complicated it will be to strip out. If it's easy, i bet some won't. If it's baked into the very core of Ubuntu and almost impossible to remove, then you're probably right and it will remain in all derivatives.

Why would an xfce distro want an extra display server that they couldn't even make use of, just running under x for no particular reason? Doesn't make any sense for them.

I think if Ubuntu makes it too hard to strip Mir, a lot of derivatives are going to be rebasing or quitting...

To answer both:

AFAIK the Kubuntu and Xubuntu guys have no plans to adapt KWin/Xfwm to support Mir natively. At some point, however, running Xorg stand-alone will no longer be supported (I expect 2016's LTS release to do this at the latest). Wayland may be inherited by *Ubuntu from Debian but also not in an officially supported way.

One of the arguments for easy access for newcomers is the semi-automatic driver installer. Why should Canonical offer any but Mir-comparible drivers?
Should Wayland and Mir require different drivers and neither Wayland not Xorg drivers are to be found in the repos, what would be the approach of least work? XMir obviously.

[Temar]

No it doesn't, it just confirms that you overlook things - the 5750-sb is opensource driver with Vadim optimizations and it outperforms catalyst in several tasks and stays on 80% in others.

You have a very selective perception. A single card that uses special optimizations outperforms the catalyst in a few tests.

Where do your 35% go?

Look at the rest of the test, they benchmarked quite a few cards there.

You kinda have zero clue

Says the one who actually claims:

opensource driver provides everything that catalyst provides

Laughable, you are in total denial of reality.

And if you start calling me "opensource zealot" I will personally contact Michael to ban you asshat, because just due to me prefering opensource anything does not give you a crap to open your shitty mouth.

Please do that. If you can't stand criticism on your precious open source drivers then i guess the only way to keep your views intact is by trying to get people banned. This is exactly the behaviour one expects from zealots.

[brosis]

This just confirms what I said.

No it doesn't, it just confirms that you overlook things - the 5750-sb is opensource driver with Vadim optimizations and it outperforms catalyst in several tasks and stays on 80% in others.
Where do your 35% go?

It's not about being able to run Wayland but about wanting to run Wayland. If one has the choice between a perfectly running system with proprietary drivers (X11) or a medicore system with open source drivers (Wayland), only OSS zealots will choose the latter. Normal people give a shit about their display server, they just want a perfectly running system to do their daily work. If Wayland can't provide that because of the lack of proprietary drivers, then people simply won't use it.

You kinda have zero clue - opensource driver provides everything that catalyst provides PLUS support for all new platforms, operating systems and desktop environiments out of the box same day.
And if you start calling me "opensource zealot" I will personally contact Michael to ban you asshat, because just due to me prefering opensource anything does not give you a crap to open your shitty mouth.
Now fuck off.

[duby229]

Actually I have all three GFX systems. My laptop is a Lenovo Thinkpad with Intel graphics, my work computer has an ATI card and my home computer a Nvidia card. It must have been a long time since you last used the catalyst driver. Todays catalyst ist not as stable as the Nvidia driver but it is still far superior to the OSS driver in nearly every way. Open source drivers are a nice thing to have, but people won't start using them just because the sources are available.

I deal with the catalyst driver regularly. I maintain a network for medical providers. Mostly linux thin clients. I have evaluated catalyst in dozens of scenarios. For my needs the OSS driver is obviously the better choice.

I can't think of a single scenario where guaranteed daily or even hourly kernel panics are "superior in every way". Come on. Lets be realistic here.

EDIT: The OSS drivers have superior desktop performance, hibernation works, I've never seen a kernel panic yet, Multimonitor configurations work great, 3d rendering is accurate and performance has exceeded early expectations.

These are the facts whether you like them or not.

[Temar]

Your right, normal people don't care about their driver or display server.. They won't know the difference anyway.. What they will notice is the horrible desktop performance, the kernel panics, the rendering glitches, the hibernation bugs, the multimonitor glitches....

The proprietary drivers are -NOT- what you say they are. Catalyst isnt even usable for most people.

EDIT: If you have an ATi card, you go right ahead and install the nvidia driver and see exactly how much it makes up for. Just just go ahead and do it.

Actually I have all three GFX systems. My laptop is a Lenovo Thinkpad with Intel graphics, my work computer has an ATI card and my home computer a Nvidia card. It must have been a long time since you last used the catalyst driver. Todays catalyst ist not as stable as the Nvidia driver but it is still far superior to the OSS driver in nearly every way. Open source drivers are a nice thing to have, but people won't start using them just because the sources are available.

[MartinN]

bad news

Mir aside, if there's anything that will turn people off from Wayland is buggy, unstable and unusable code. It can't all be about new features, stability/usability matters too. Since it's at 1.0+... there's no reason why it should not be usable and mostly crash-free.

[duby229]

What catalyst lacks in stability, the Nvidia's driver easily makes up for. Also catalyst is quite stable nowadays and - as others in this forum confirmed - the far better choice if you are using a mobile device. It's retarded to think that people will all switch to Wayland just because a new shiny display server is available. People will switch when Wayland is able to offer them at least the same experience as they are used to from X11. You can lie to yourself as much as you want, but normal people don't care about their driver or display server.

Your right, normal people don't care about their driver or display server.. They won't know the difference anyway.. What they will notice is the horrible desktop performance, the kernel panics, the rendering glitches, the hibernation bugs, the multimonitor glitches....

The proprietary drivers are -NOT- what you say they are. Catalyst isnt even usable for most people.

EDIT: If you have an ATi card, you go right ahead and install the nvidia driver and see exactly how much it makes up for. Just go ahead and do it.

[Temar]

Frankly, you don't have a clue what the hell you are talking about. Calling Catalyst stable is easily one of the most retarded things that can be said. Proprietary drivers are not the panacea that you think they are.

What catalyst lacks in stability, the Nvidia's driver easily makes up for. Also catalyst is quite stable nowadays and - as others in this forum confirmed - the far better choice if you are using a mobile device. It's retarded to think that people will all switch to Wayland just because a new shiny display server is available. People will switch when Wayland is able to offer them at least the same experience as they are used to from X11. You can lie to yourself as much as you want, but normal people don't care about their driver or display server.

[duby229]

This just confirms what I said.



It's not about being able to run Wayland but about wanting to run Wayland. If one has the choice between a perfectly running system with proprietary drivers (X11) or a medicore system with open source drivers (Wayland), only OSS zealots will choose the latter. Normal people give a shit about their display server, they just want a perfectly running system to do their daily work. If Wayland can't provide that because of the lack of proprietary drivers, then people simply won't use it.

Frankly, you don't have a clue what the hell you are talking about. Calling Catalyst stable is easily one of the most retarded things that can be said. Proprietary drivers are not the panacea that you think they are.