Reasons For Losing Motivation In Wayland

[brosis]

Damn it, you are so a FOSS zealot that you are not able to read properly and try to make up things, only that you don't have to damage the image that you have made up of the free drivers in your mind. I have not said the the GPU is overheating, I said that the system is overheating. Read: The CPU alone runs with 15?C higher temperature on radeon than on Catalyst. And no, there is no throttling at all. And yes, I know how to maintain cooling systems (man, I probably have build and repaired more PC systems than you have ever seen in your live).

Maybe I have to put this in simple words for you: This driver problem. No hardware problem. Hardware worky worky OK.
Up to my ignore list.

You are DanL?... I was talking to DanL.

From you I asked please the bug report. But instead you got aggressive. Fine, you can't fix your own notebook so, then ask someone to do it.

[brosis]

No, they are not, even if you put aside things like power management, OpenGL, OpenCL or UVD support. The open source drivers are not even a match when it comes to basic 3D performance. Every single Phoronix comparison confirms this: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...pril2013&num=1

When looking at power management, UVD, OpenGL and OpenCL support it gets even worse. Sure, many of these features are available on some level, but they are not en par with the proprietary drivers. So don't lie to yourself because it won't change anything. Without the support of proprietary drivers, Wayland will simply be ignored by the users.

3D: http://openbenchmarking.org/result/1...500792103#r-14 70-110% of catalyst.
PM: yes, we miss dynpm, no one denies that
OpenCL: I don't use it, really; but people say it gets near 60% of fglrx already?
UVD: AMD recently released UVD support for HD4xxx and up via VDPAU

I switched to AMD directly from Intel drivers, so I don't want fglrx right from start, and the open drivers work pretty flawless.
Hell, HD5850+opensource on my desktop machine is good enough for all games, including WINE.

Even Darxus, the person complaining in the article, got his HD6850 + opensource, switching from nvidia + nvidia and he used it to test Wayland. So Wayland runs perfectly without proprietary drivers. If you set proprietary driver as requirement to Wayland, then its your own opinion.

[smitty3268]

Perhaps related...

Darxus is a Ubuntu user.

I'm not saying that has anything to do with this, but it does seem somewhat coincidental that he's publicly complaining about Wayland right after Mir is announced and it's obvious his distro isn't going to pursue using it.

[brosis]

Darxus is a Ubuntu user.

I'm not saying that has anything to do with this, but it does seem somewhat coincidental that he's publicly complaining about Wayland right after Mir is announced and it's obvious his distro isn't going to pursue using it.

Yes, he is, but he is pretty sane (and biker - bikers are awesome ). This is what I found, I can say I am completely with him on Ubuntu; but the whole case of three unfixed, seemingly unrelated bugs is more complex, because those bugs break in XWayland, and upon being fixed expose even deeper bugs.

I wanted to post in "Wayland situation" that "its a display server, a huge thing, anchored deep, that never goes without bugs; and those get in our face first (after developers) and we have to deal with them, inevitably(as in reporting)"; but I decided against, because I seemed logical to me (systemd, pulseaudio, even unity).

[MuPuF]

Hi MuPuF! I have suggested prior that you guys use kickstarter-ish scheme for this: realistic goals - money - donations - mercenary work.
My vision is that there is no need to posses 100 developers, there is need for good organization where personal interests (I am *not* talking about altruism here) will drive the development. And 100 developers will come.

Yes, you already told me your vision. The thing is, paying the devs wouldn't make them work faster, trust me. As for the mercenary work, it won't work as it is almost impossible to predict how long it will take to implement a feature (unless it is a menial task) and I also don't want people to be eager about pushing something just because they want/need the money.

For example, you could start to use phoronix mass media, to post monthly refresher on:
- accomplished goals (essentially changelog)

Yeah, that's the point of the TiNDC. No-one seems interested in writing one anymore because there isn't much to report anyway and phoronix tend to relay all the big news anyway.

- ongoing efforts, requiring attention (for contributors)

See the status matrix: http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/FeatureMatrix/

- required efforts, requiring known specific donation (for supporters and mercenary developers)
- hardware requirements, for those interested in hardware donation

Whenever someone has a donation to make, please propose on IRC.

- testing USB images, for people interested in ability to run your tests on their nvidia hardware, effortlessly and without interaction; and then submit data to you.

The thing is that we have almost no hardware tests even though we are writing more and more of them (not sure you appreciate how much work this represents).
Making USB images are useless as long as we don't have enough tests. If someone is interested in writing more, be my guest, this is a very nice way to learn about the hardware!

[mrugiero]

Darxus is a Ubuntu user.

I'm not saying that has anything to do with this, but it does seem somewhat coincidental that he's publicly complaining about Wayland right after Mir is announced and it's obvious his distro isn't going to pursue using it.

So? I'm an Ubuntu user and I still think Mir is pretty much nonsense...
I didn't really get to understand what are they up to, though.

[ᘜᕟᗃᒟ]

Hi MuPuF! I have suggested prior that you guys use kickstarter-ish scheme for this: realistic goals - money - donations - mercenary work.
My vision is that there is no need to posses 100 developers, there is need for good organization where personal interests (I am *not* talking about altruism here) will drive the development. And 100 developers will come.

For example, you could start to use phoronix mass media, to post monthly refresher on:
- accomplished goals (essentially changelog)
- ongoing efforts, requiring attention (for contributors)
- required efforts, requiring known specific donation (for supporters and mercenary developers)
- hardware requirements, for those interested in hardware donation
- testing USB images, for people interested in ability to run your tests on their nvidia hardware, effortlessly and without interaction; and then submit data to you.

I understand that you run it as a student project, but if you don't take it seriously, nothing serious can emerge. You know it anyways, so don't take this as a rant

I'd support that all the way if they did. Like I would eat rice and water for a month to scrape $100+ for that. The rewards would just be bonus and I'd pull coins-rolls out of my ass to get to the goal amounts. I mean $13 avg. for a native linux game on Humble Bundle, and I'd like to think a $20 avg per person on this, multiply a good 60% of ~2 mil Linux users. Lots of dough and more importantly full-paid developers w/ chips and motherboards. If I could get PM and reasonable clock switching and Digital Vibrancy on my Quadro 140m I'd pay $30-$50 a month and wash and feed the developers myself. "Ain't nobody got time fo' Nvidia BS."

[Awesomeness]

Personally I'm losing interest because it only works on the open drivers.

Wrong. Wayland can load Android GPU drivers ? closed and open ones.

The problem here seems to be more on 3rd party projects than on Wayland itself.
While it is a pitty that open-source software is constatly subject to this kind of problems, it is the reality, and we should try to further improve the interconections between projects that depend upon another, instead of just giving up.

Developers of software can't be expected to compile all possible combinations themselves. Once Wayland enters the distributions the devs use, the bugs will get fixed.
Bitching about bugs during transition periods is pathetic anyway.

It certainly is fatal for a lot of laptop users, especially those who want to run a 3D desktop.

There are currently no 3D desktops. AFAIK Project Looking Glass by Sun was one of the few projects that were ever released to the public.

Buy an Intel card.

Where do I get an Intel graphics card?

So? I'm an Ubuntu user and I still think Mir is pretty much nonsense...

Then switch to another distro without Mir.

[ᘜᕟᗃᒟ]

Then switch to another distro without Mir.

Well Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Gnome Ubuntu and Manjaro + the communiy releases, Arch, Backtrack, Fedora, Sabayon, Mint linux. Basically anything that is not vanilla Ubuntu.

[Awesomeness]

Well Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Gnome Ubuntu and Manjaro + the communiy releases, Arch, Backtrack, Fedora, Sabayon, Mint linux. Basically anything that is not vanilla Ubuntu.

All Ubuntu derivatives will eventually ship Mir. Desktops like Xfce may run via the X11 compatibility layer (XMir) but they'll ship Mir nonetheless.
There are plenty of easy to use Linux distributions that are not based on Ubuntu. Don't like Mir? Just switch. It's so easy.